Re: The dharmatroll is tang sub-thread

On May 26, 8:42 am, "Ned" <nedl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> <norbu.tra...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>
>
news:3a9cae43-f993-449a-a980-93bb2f09c75e@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Here's a fetter: Dharma.  It had a widespread and powerful
> >> meaning in Indian society at the time of Buddha.  The epic
> >> of the Bhagavad-Gita delineated its meaning in relentless
> >> detail.
>
> > There were only a couple chapters of the Bhagavad-Gita existent
> > in the Buddha's time, and no evidence that he had ever heard them.
> > Your basic idea idea true though, he was dealing with a lot of
> > stale bread promising everything and delivering at best golden
> > chains.
>
> >> Buddha radically redefined the meaning of the word Dharma,
> >> presumably because he saw that it had become an anchor
> >> and a fetter.
>
> > The dharmas taught then were fetters, but the Boss didn't exactly
> > redefine "the word dharma" - "dharma" means the natural way things
> > happen - the dharma of hot milk in cold air is to form a "skin",
> > the dharma of cats is to chase mice and birds, etc, - what the
> > Buddha did was teach many different approaches to the "buddhadharma:
> > the way of awakening - to getting out of samsara.
>
>   Dharma is whatever you are holding to.  Whatever you are holding
> to is your fetter, and what binds you.

You don't have to hold on to dharma of gravity for it to happen.
If you are free from holding on to gravity and leap off a building you
will
still fall.

You keep objecting to what words try to point out.

What you hold on to is just what you hold on to, dharma happens
without a care of what you hold on to or not. The world doesn't care
if you
hold on to rocks or not - if you drop a big rock on your foot it will
hurt i.e.
tissue damage etc, nerve signals, brain responses. That's dharma, and
it doesn't give
a rat's ass how much you try to hypnotize yourself - you may deny that
you feel
it for days on end, but the bruise will still happen.

>
> >> A thousand years later a chan master in China
> >> saw that the word and concept of Dharma had again become an
> >> anchor and a fetter, so he further radically redefined the
> >> meaning of the word (for the Chan/Zen sect) as follows (this
> >> is a very literal translation: "Dharma original Dharma not
> >> Dharma, not Dharma Dharma also Dharma, now transmit not Dharma
> >> Dharma, Dharma Dharma how can be Dharma."  Good.
>
> > Only good until anyone makes even that into a crutch.
> > i prefer the clarity of Chao-Chou's answer:
> > Monk: "What is Holiness?"
> > Chao-Chou: "**** on a silver platter."
>
>   Whatever you believe is a crutch.  Whatever you wor****p,
> whatever you treasure.

Agreed. Avoiding this is also a crutch. Life doesn't care if you
think
the moon is silicone or cheese, and your belief and disbelief won't
alter the flow
a hair's bredth. The rock hits your toe, tissues are damaged, a bruise
forms -
that's dharma. That's what the word means. You want to re-define the
word
to being "attachment", but that's nuts. Trsna (tirshna) means
attachment -
"thirst". You redefine the what the Buddha said to fit your own theory
and
fail to see that it points to kicking out all theory.

>
> >> This is how it ends up.
>
> > No, it ends up that way fairly often. It depends on if someone has
> > crashed to the point that they have no way out and have to start
> > being ****dly honest with themselves.
>
>   If you believe that cra****ng is necessary for honesty and
> awareness, then cra****ng is your crutch (and your fetter).

"Cra****ng", as i used the term, means when all theories fail. Just a a
way of speaking.
Tang uses "cra****ng" in a different sense, of being lost in ideas and
self defense.
Words are used to suggest directions to explore, not to posit static
"truths"....

>
> >> Here's another fetter: Suffering.  As the first noble truth,
> >> this word had great utility and meaning 2,500 years ago.  But
> >> nowadays it gets nit-picked to death.  (By people like you,
> >> who love to cut fine shades of meaning to words, rather than
> >> address the issues at hand.)
>
> > You, snookums, i can tell you with fairly good insight, don't
> > have a ghost of a clue about me.
>
>   You are an open book,Norbu.

i might be...but you read "Ned's Norbu" all over me, and still don't
have a ghost of a clue...

> You are a miniscule part of
> the green slime that covers this planet and you are striving
> to attain something that you think you lack.

i can go along with the green slime, and i try to develop where i am
lacking sometimes,
but mostly i am just watching whatever happens with a vow to help all
beings to get free from suffering
....in application it means letting go of everything that i do not
need...

we need very little to stay alive and practice the buddhadharma...

how much excess and waste are you involved in?

>
> > You keep asigning views to me that i do not, when i raise a point
> > you miss it and turn it into part of your own script of "What I
> > Oppose" - utterly missing what i actually said.
>
>   Views and 'points' are meaningless and irrelevant.  Opposition
> naturally recedes and disappears as soon as nothing is raised up.

Nice theory. Funny how you don't practice it.
Views are irrelevant because what happens happens anyway -
that's why dharmas are said to empty of views/ego/etc...That
doesn't say that dharmas are existent/non-existent/etc...

Stuff happens and it isn't based on your daydreams or lack thereof...

You can try to ignore and redifine what the Buddha said till Texas
freezes over,
but it doesn't change a single hair on your head.

>
> > Now if you could slow down a bit, and lose your
> > Right Machine knee-jerk reactions we might have an interesting
> > conversation - but so far you're coming off like a fundy who cannot
> > stomach the possibility that they don't already know everything
> > and is willing to fight-fight-fight to prove they're right-right-
> > right.
>
>   Hold that thought.

did. i already said that you have decided to see me as something like
that...
Your choosing this view is what i find sort of odd...

>
> >> Apparently the word suffering
> >> has become an anchor and a fetter, and people are struggling
> >> to redefine it and free themselves from its burdensomeness.
>
> > The word isn't "suffering" - it's "dukkha", which literally means
> > "bad space"...
>
>   As I said, nowadays everything gets nit-picked to death, by people
> like you, who love to cut fine shades of meaning to words, rather
> than address the issues at hand.

"Suffering" and "Bad Space" do in fact mean something quite different,
especially in context.
It's not "nit-picking" in the least. Dukkha is inclusive of many more
states of mind than "suffering",
such as dogmatic assurity, psuedo-transcendence, etc etc...All the
junk we put
in place of being ****d and honest.

>
> > Aren't you curious about what the Buddha said was bad space and
> > what it's origin is? Or are you attached to the bad translation of
> > "suffering" and spending your time rejecting it? me - i'm curious
> > about what that guy actually said...
>
>   Yes, lets talk about the origins of words, and various translations
> of sanskrit, etc. etc., which is the primary reason Buddha walked the
> earth, right?

No, was talking about what the Buddha actually said - understanding
his language and
our language enough to know where translations are possible,
impossible. etc.

  So that we all should become linguists?

No, that in reeding texts from a very foreign language we should
realize that that
the concepts of our language and culture may not apply at all. You
seem to
choke at that notion.

>
> > In some of the traditions i have practiced in the idea of getting
> > out of dukkha is regarded as big mistake, so it's more like whole
> > heartedly experiencing the burden than diving for cheap cover.
>
>   Your proclivities for BDS&M are not germane to this discussion,Norbu.

Humor appreciated. Ego wanting to get out of ego is still ego
defensiveness.
Capice?

>
> >> Since you fancy yourself a librarian,
>
> > This is what i'm talking about regarding your combative attitude -
> > i specifically said "i ***play*** the librarian on the buddhist
> > usenet groups -
>
>   Oh, not quibbling TOO much about words here,Norbu!

if i play a zombie at Halloween it doesn't mean that i fancy myself a
zombie.
That, sweets, isn't a quibble in the least.

It seems to me that you think all words are crap and so fail to notice
the various shades of meaning. Words aren't truths, etc, but they are
useful
along the path, fingers pointing at the moon so to speak.

If you can hold up a flower and awake thousands, good for you, but
you might notice that it's been 2,500 years since anyone pulled that
trick off....

>
> > i present the traditional texts, summaries, cross-reference between
> > traditions, etc - these are not my views, but the way historical
> > traditions have talked about the process.
>
>   Yes and I'm sure your contributions are greatly appreciated by
> scores of readers of these groups.  No, seriously.  But you do
> understand that's why we have 5,000 volumes in the Buddhist canon,
> right?

Yes. Because words are crap. :>

But we don't have mana-dharma lightning stikes to zap folks awake....
In everyday life we have every gesture, glance, expression, words, a
touch,
etc etc we can be there when someone calls at 3am or when someone has
a dance party...
not to prop them up but to stand by when they take apart the walls...

>
> >> I suspect you will
> >> never see or accept the obvious conclusion of the above
> >> progressions and evolutions of concepts and words.
>
> > Thanks for thinking that i am so benighted that i will never see
> > daylight.
>
>   Maybe daylight is your fetter,Norbu.  Maybe you are too dazzled
> by the light.  Is there such a thing as too much Buddhism?

That's so silly. Most folks on line know me as a hard core skeptic...
i've posted about the end phase of the budhadharma *requiring*
dropping all
beliefs....like that "Neither Perception nor Non-Perception" topic you
have been
avoiding...(btw, why have you been avoiding that?) What happens in
your world when
you end up empty of concepts/beliefs/etc?

>
> > Is that how you go about your day looking at the people you meet
> > as you pass by?
>
>   Do you mean all those miniscule bits of green slime?

i mean your mom. or son or daughter. sister or brother. or you.
anyone you want to regard as slime. Do you go through your day
regarding everyone as slime?
Do you regard yourself as slime during your day? Do you enter a room a
think
"All these people are slime." ? Do you wake up in the morning anf
think "I am slime..."...?


>
> >> But it is there for anyone to see.
>
> > No, it's not about your "everyone", "everyone" doesn't care about
> > this thread - it's just you and me here, and i want to know why
> > you're being so arrogant - delivering Truths From The Throne
> > instead of even beginning to discuss how senses happen, what ego
> > does when it gets in the mix, your own experience in everyday
> > life, etc.
>
>   Senses happen because of desire.

Senses happen before desire. Read the frrkn suttas/sutras, or just sit
your ass down and do some peacefulness/insight practice, or just some
mindfulnss practice....

If you are talking about "conditioned coproduction", etc, whatever
translation, then you have ignored the context
of those teachings - desires happen - then use the senses, which are
automatic (not dependent on desires)....

How invested in being  "Right" are you to ignore what the Buddha
actually said ????

>  Ego doesn't "get into the
> mix", it is the Monarch of the mix.  It IS the mix.

Ego wishes it was in control. Ego exists as a fear reaction of not
being able control anything.

>
> > It seems to me that you want to avoid questioning your and my
> > views, the texts, inviting in others folks views... "I'm Right,
> > you're Wrong" doesn't make for enlightening conversation.
>
>   The world has never suffered from a shortage of views.  Find
> me a viewless world, and we'll both go and live there.

easy. The world in your heart exists before any view. Before any idea
of heart, view, before, etc.
Drop every idea and concept and you will meet me there. It's sort of a
low budget place, and there isn't
much of me or you to meet there at all...the more you can stop
clinging too the more space opens up...
and it's not "void" at all except "void of concept"....

Tathagatagarbha.

>
>                                                            Ned


  - n.