On 16 May, 07:54, "^@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>---*=#" <yom...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> "Tang Huyen" <tanghuyen{dele...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>
> news:0ImdnXLCxpgD9bDVnZ2dnUVZ_qPinZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dave K wrote:
>
> >> The Buddha's two meditation teachers, Alara Kalama and Uddaka
> >> Ramaputta attained the last two formless attainments and thought they
> >> had awakening. Kalama attained the "base of nothingness" and
> >> Ramaputta "the base of neither perception nor non perception." Those
> >> are the highest possible states of absorption in the canon.
>
> >> In other words "You can't get any blanker."
>
> >> The dominant myth about meditation (which I was suprised to find with
> >> Raan just now) is that it's merely something like this, a state of
> >> blank conciousness an nonactivity, and nothing else. It's easy
> >> enough to think "ok, if i stop thinking, I'll stop suffering, *BAM*
> >> enlighenment. These two teachers thought they were enlightened
> >> because of it, and lots of other people with lots of other meditative
> >> experiences have thought the same thing. The Buddha knew better and
> >> left them.
>
> > I have never attained to anything close to these
> > states, so I only talk book, but talking book,
> > you are flat wrong:
>
> > <<Those are the highest possible states of
> > absorption in the canon.
>
> > In other words "You can't get any blanker.">>
>
> > To back up a little: the four form meditations
> > and the four formless attainments are worldly
> > states. Once in them, one can use them to
> > meditate on the contemplations of impermanence,
> > absence of self, suffering, emptiness, etc. and
> > thus turn them into world-transcending states.
> > They belong to calming (samatha), whereas such
> > contemplations belong to insight/penetration
> > (vipassana). As one gets up in the formless
> > attainments, they become more and more abstract,
> > more and more faint (your word: blank). As I said,
> > the four form meditations and the four formless
> > attainments are worldly states. The state of
> > nothingness is the third highest formless state, and
> > the state of neither-notion-nor-not-notion is the
> > highest formless state, and is also called the summit
> > of existence (bhava-agra), because it is the highest
> > form of existence, meaning the highest state of
> > faring-on (samsara). The Buddha calls it the state
> > with a remainder of the compositions (the
> > compositions being the fourth aggregate), and (here
> > is where you go wrong), there is a next higher state,
> > the cessation attainment (nirodha-samapatti), where
> > all compositions cease and Nirvana is attained. The
> > Buddha defines Nirvana as the complete calming of
> > the compositions (sabba-sankhara-samatho), the
> > non-doing or non-acting (an-abhi-sankhara), where
> > sankhara "composition" comes from the stem kr- "to
> > do, to act" as in karman "act, deed".
>
> > However Nirvana can also be attained below the
> > attainment of cessation by the complete calming of
> > the compositions (sabba-sankhara-samatho), the
> > non-doing or non-acting (an-abhi-sankhara). In each
> > form meditation or in each formless attainment, one
> > merely calms the compositions, and one is in
> > Nirvana. There is no other requirement to Nirvana
> > than the complete calming of the compositions, the
> > non-doing or non-acting. Thus, even as it is peace,
> > joy and bliss, it has no content, is content-free.
>
> > The Buddha also defines Nirvana as the non-thinking
> > (an-abhi-cetayana), where the stem is cit- "to think",
> > as in citta "mind, thought", and the fourth aggregate,
> > the compositions, is also called the volitions (cetana).
> > Thus Nirvana is absence of doing, of acting
> > (an-abhi-sankhara) and absence of thinking
> > (an-abhi-cetayana). The attainment of cessation is
> > where calming and insight/penetration combine and
> > cooperate, so that all thinking and volition cease,
> > gently and not forcibly. To force it would be
> > contradictory because to force it would belong to
> > thought, to volition, to the compositions. But as I said,
> > all thinking and volition can also cease, gently and
> > not forcibly, in each form meditation and formless
> > attainment, and Nirvana is thereby attained.
>
> > As to what you say: <<IMO, this may be the distinction
> > that is made in zen between not-thinking and
> > non-thinking. The buddha did not apply thought,
> > because thoughts are ways of chopping up experience
> > into bits, a bit like trying to look at a large area with a
> > small flashlight. But he did apply his mind, which is
> > better able to perceive the big picture.>>
>
> > Could you explain, especially the distinction that is
> > made in Zen between not-thinking and non-thinking?
> > I have never heard of such, in Chinese Chan.
>
> > There is no application of mind in Nirvana, as in it all
> > thought and volition cease. There is application of mind
> > prior to Nirvana, to attain to it, but in it there is none,
> > just peaceful, easeful rest. It is total absence of activity
> > (remember, activity is kr- "to act, to do"). The big
> > picture is reached when one opens up and does not do
> > anything. Grace is bestowed on those who don't do
> > anything, especially anything to deserve it.
>
> > Tang Huyen
>
> you cannot stop doing. you cannot stop
> eating drinking ****ing sleeping nor stop
> the felicity of the parasympathetic nervous
> system or the many other functions that take
> place automatically. this subatomic particle
> mass in expression is bound and determined
> to survive and you can't do much to stop it.
> you're being taken for the ride of your life.
> sit back and enjoy. you're not living, you
> are being lived.
It's not that kind of non doing.
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