"Keynes" <Keynes@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:54fr24pdgg7ki6ih3kpqmr0fn3m1v488oe@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Fri, 16 May 2008 12:01:08 -0400, "^@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>---*=#" <yomama@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Keynes" <Keynes@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>news:2mar241h5th7v2iocelbdn0paktlvlpt6a@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> On Fri, 16 May 2008 11:32:37 -0400, "^@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>---*=#" <yomama@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Keynes" <Keynes@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>>news:ev8r24dmks0r8o9j5oo1njk04o4k881dng@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>> On Fri, 16 May 2008 10:54:53 -0400, "^@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>---*=#"
<yomama@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Tang Huyen" <tanghuyen{delete}@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:0ImdnXLCxpgD9bDVnZ2dnUVZ_qPinZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dave K wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Buddha's two meditation teachers, Alara Kalama and Uddaka
>>>>>>>> Ramaputta attained the last two formless attainments and thought
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> had awakening. Kalama attained the "base of nothingness" and
>>>>>>>> Ramaputta "the base of neither perception nor non perception."
>>>>>>>> Those
>>>>>>>> are the highest possible states of absorption in the canon.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In other words "You can't get any blanker."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The dominant myth about meditation (which I was suprised to find
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> Raan just now) is that it's merely something like this, a state
of
>>>>>>>> blank conciousness an nonactivity, and nothing else. It's easy
>>>>>>>> enough to think "ok, if i stop thinking, I'll stop suffering,
*BAM*
>>>>>>>> enlighenment. These two teachers thought they were enlightened
>>>>>>>> because of it, and lots of other people with lots of other
>>>>>>>> meditative
>>>>>>>> experiences have thought the same thing. The Buddha knew better
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> left them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have never attained to anything close to these
>>>>>>> states, so I only talk book, but talking book,
>>>>>>> you are flat wrong:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <<Those are the highest possible states of
>>>>>>> absorption in the canon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In other words "You can't get any blanker.">>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To back up a little: the four form meditations
>>>>>>> and the four formless attainments are worldly
>>>>>>> states. Once in them, one can use them to
>>>>>>> meditate on the contemplations of impermanence,
>>>>>>> absence of self, suffering, emptiness, etc. and
>>>>>>> thus turn them into world-transcending states.
>>>>>>> They belong to calming (samatha), whereas such
>>>>>>> contemplations belong to insight/penetration
>>>>>>> (vipassana). As one gets up in the formless
>>>>>>> attainments, they become more and more abstract,
>>>>>>> more and more faint (your word: blank). As I said,
>>>>>>> the four form meditations and the four formless
>>>>>>> attainments are worldly states. The state of
>>>>>>> nothingness is the third highest formless state, and
>>>>>>> the state of neither-notion-nor-not-notion is the
>>>>>>> highest formless state, and is also called the summit
>>>>>>> of existence (bhava-agra), because it is the highest
>>>>>>> form of existence, meaning the highest state of
>>>>>>> faring-on (samsara). The Buddha calls it the state
>>>>>>> with a remainder of the compositions (the
>>>>>>> compositions being the fourth aggregate), and (here
>>>>>>> is where you go wrong), there is a next higher state,
>>>>>>> the cessation attainment (nirodha-samapatti), where
>>>>>>> all compositions cease and Nirvana is attained. The
>>>>>>> Buddha defines Nirvana as the complete calming of
>>>>>>> the compositions (sabba-sankhara-samatho), the
>>>>>>> non-doing or non-acting (an-abhi-sankhara), where
>>>>>>> sankhara "composition" comes from the stem kr- "to
>>>>>>> do, to act" as in karman "act, deed".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However Nirvana can also be attained below the
>>>>>>> attainment of cessation by the complete calming of
>>>>>>> the compositions (sabba-sankhara-samatho), the
>>>>>>> non-doing or non-acting (an-abhi-sankhara). In each
>>>>>>> form meditation or in each formless attainment, one
>>>>>>> merely calms the compositions, and one is in
>>>>>>> Nirvana. There is no other requirement to Nirvana
>>>>>>> than the complete calming of the compositions, the
>>>>>>> non-doing or non-acting. Thus, even as it is peace,
>>>>>>> joy and bliss, it has no content, is content-free.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Buddha also defines Nirvana as the non-thinking
>>>>>>> (an-abhi-cetayana), where the stem is cit- "to think",
>>>>>>> as in citta "mind, thought", and the fourth aggregate,
>>>>>>> the compositions, is also called the volitions (cetana).
>>>>>>> Thus Nirvana is absence of doing, of acting
>>>>>>> (an-abhi-sankhara) and absence of thinking
>>>>>>> (an-abhi-cetayana). The attainment of cessation is
>>>>>>> where calming and insight/penetration combine and
>>>>>>> cooperate, so that all thinking and volition cease,
>>>>>>> gently and not forcibly. To force it would be
>>>>>>> contradictory because to force it would belong to
>>>>>>> thought, to volition, to the compositions. But as I said,
>>>>>>> all thinking and volition can also cease, gently and
>>>>>>> not forcibly, in each form meditation and formless
>>>>>>> attainment, and Nirvana is thereby attained.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As to what you say: <<IMO, this may be the distinction
>>>>>>> that is made in zen between not-thinking and
>>>>>>> non-thinking. The buddha did not apply thought,
>>>>>>> because thoughts are ways of chopping up experience
>>>>>>> into bits, a bit like trying to look at a large area with a
>>>>>>> small flashlight. But he did apply his mind, which is
>>>>>>> better able to perceive the big picture.>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Could you explain, especially the distinction that is
>>>>>>> made in Zen between not-thinking and non-thinking?
>>>>>>> I have never heard of such, in Chinese Chan.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is no application of mind in Nirvana, as in it all
>>>>>>> thought and volition cease. There is application of mind
>>>>>>> prior to Nirvana, to attain to it, but in it there is none,
>>>>>>> just peaceful, easeful rest. It is total absence of activity
>>>>>>> (remember, activity is kr- "to act, to do"). The big
>>>>>>> picture is reached when one opens up and does not do
>>>>>>> anything. Grace is bestowed on those who don't do
>>>>>>> anything, especially anything to deserve it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tang Huyen
>>>>>>
>>>>>>you cannot stop doing. you cannot stop
>>>>>>eating drinking ****ing sleeping nor stop
>>>>>>the felicity of the parasympathetic nervous
>>>>>>system or the many other functions that take
>>>>>>place automatically. this subatomic particle
>>>>>>mass in expression is bound and determined
>>>>>>to survive and you can't do much to stop it.
>>>>>>you're being taken for the ride of your life.
>>>>>>sit back and enjoy. you're not living, you
>>>>>>are being lived.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can stop supposing that *you* are the doer.
>>>>
>>>>'you' is just a word for communication.
>>>>i can give in to your cesspooling into a decidedly
>>>>un-necessary word correction addiction but
>>>>i'm sure that you could nitpick that to death too.
>>>
>>> Watch out or you'll get me vibrating to my addictions.
>>>
>>> To clarify, I was speaking of intention-volition.
>>> (As if you didn't know.)
>>
>>you can stop supposing that *you* are the doer
>
> What an outrageous suggestion.
take it in small bites
|
