On Fri, 16 May 2008 12:01:08 -0400, "^@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>---*=#" <yomama@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>
>"Keynes" <Keynes@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>news:2mar241h5th7v2iocelbdn0paktlvlpt6a@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> On Fri, 16 May 2008 11:32:37 -0400, "^@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>---*=#" <yomama@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Keynes" <Keynes@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>news:ev8r24dmks0r8o9j5oo1njk04o4k881dng@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> On Fri, 16 May 2008 10:54:53 -0400, "^@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>---*=#" <yomama@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Tang Huyen" <tanghuyen{delete}@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>>>news:0ImdnXLCxpgD9bDVnZ2dnUVZ_qPinZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave K wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Buddha's two meditation teachers, Alara Kalama and Uddaka
>>>>>>> Ramaputta attained the last two formless attainments and thought
they
>>>>>>> had awakening. Kalama attained the "base of nothingness" and
>>>>>>> Ramaputta "the base of neither perception nor non perception."
Those
>>>>>>> are the highest possible states of absorption in the canon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In other words "You can't get any blanker."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The dominant myth about meditation (which I was suprised to find
with
>>>>>>> Raan just now) is that it's merely something like this, a state of
>>>>>>> blank conciousness an nonactivity, and nothing else. It's easy
>>>>>>> enough to think "ok, if i stop thinking, I'll stop suffering,
*BAM*
>>>>>>> enlighenment. These two teachers thought they were enlightened
>>>>>>> because of it, and lots of other people with lots of other
meditative
>>>>>>> experiences have thought the same thing. The Buddha knew better
and
>>>>>>> left them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have never attained to anything close to these
>>>>>> states, so I only talk book, but talking book,
>>>>>> you are flat wrong:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <<Those are the highest possible states of
>>>>>> absorption in the canon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In other words "You can't get any blanker.">>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To back up a little: the four form meditations
>>>>>> and the four formless attainments are worldly
>>>>>> states. Once in them, one can use them to
>>>>>> meditate on the contemplations of impermanence,
>>>>>> absence of self, suffering, emptiness, etc. and
>>>>>> thus turn them into world-transcending states.
>>>>>> They belong to calming (samatha), whereas such
>>>>>> contemplations belong to insight/penetration
>>>>>> (vipassana). As one gets up in the formless
>>>>>> attainments, they become more and more abstract,
>>>>>> more and more faint (your word: blank). As I said,
>>>>>> the four form meditations and the four formless
>>>>>> attainments are worldly states. The state of
>>>>>> nothingness is the third highest formless state, and
>>>>>> the state of neither-notion-nor-not-notion is the
>>>>>> highest formless state, and is also called the summit
>>>>>> of existence (bhava-agra), because it is the highest
>>>>>> form of existence, meaning the highest state of
>>>>>> faring-on (samsara). The Buddha calls it the state
>>>>>> with a remainder of the compositions (the
>>>>>> compositions being the fourth aggregate), and (here
>>>>>> is where you go wrong), there is a next higher state,
>>>>>> the cessation attainment (nirodha-samapatti), where
>>>>>> all compositions cease and Nirvana is attained. The
>>>>>> Buddha defines Nirvana as the complete calming of
>>>>>> the compositions (sabba-sankhara-samatho), the
>>>>>> non-doing or non-acting (an-abhi-sankhara), where
>>>>>> sankhara "composition" comes from the stem kr- "to
>>>>>> do, to act" as in karman "act, deed".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However Nirvana can also be attained below the
>>>>>> attainment of cessation by the complete calming of
>>>>>> the compositions (sabba-sankhara-samatho), the
>>>>>> non-doing or non-acting (an-abhi-sankhara). In each
>>>>>> form meditation or in each formless attainment, one
>>>>>> merely calms the compositions, and one is in
>>>>>> Nirvana. There is no other requirement to Nirvana
>>>>>> than the complete calming of the compositions, the
>>>>>> non-doing or non-acting. Thus, even as it is peace,
>>>>>> joy and bliss, it has no content, is content-free.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Buddha also defines Nirvana as the non-thinking
>>>>>> (an-abhi-cetayana), where the stem is cit- "to think",
>>>>>> as in citta "mind, thought", and the fourth aggregate,
>>>>>> the compositions, is also called the volitions (cetana).
>>>>>> Thus Nirvana is absence of doing, of acting
>>>>>> (an-abhi-sankhara) and absence of thinking
>>>>>> (an-abhi-cetayana). The attainment of cessation is
>>>>>> where calming and insight/penetration combine and
>>>>>> cooperate, so that all thinking and volition cease,
>>>>>> gently and not forcibly. To force it would be
>>>>>> contradictory because to force it would belong to
>>>>>> thought, to volition, to the compositions. But as I said,
>>>>>> all thinking and volition can also cease, gently and
>>>>>> not forcibly, in each form meditation and formless
>>>>>> attainment, and Nirvana is thereby attained.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As to what you say: <<IMO, this may be the distinction
>>>>>> that is made in zen between not-thinking and
>>>>>> non-thinking. The buddha did not apply thought,
>>>>>> because thoughts are ways of chopping up experience
>>>>>> into bits, a bit like trying to look at a large area with a
>>>>>> small flashlight. But he did apply his mind, which is
>>>>>> better able to perceive the big picture.>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could you explain, especially the distinction that is
>>>>>> made in Zen between not-thinking and non-thinking?
>>>>>> I have never heard of such, in Chinese Chan.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no application of mind in Nirvana, as in it all
>>>>>> thought and volition cease. There is application of mind
>>>>>> prior to Nirvana, to attain to it, but in it there is none,
>>>>>> just peaceful, easeful rest. It is total absence of activity
>>>>>> (remember, activity is kr- "to act, to do"). The big
>>>>>> picture is reached when one opens up and does not do
>>>>>> anything. Grace is bestowed on those who don't do
>>>>>> anything, especially anything to deserve it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tang Huyen
>>>>>
>>>>>you cannot stop doing. you cannot stop
>>>>>eating drinking ****ing sleeping nor stop
>>>>>the felicity of the parasympathetic nervous
>>>>>system or the many other functions that take
>>>>>place automatically. this subatomic particle
>>>>>mass in expression is bound and determined
>>>>>to survive and you can't do much to stop it.
>>>>>you're being taken for the ride of your life.
>>>>>sit back and enjoy. you're not living, you
>>>>>are being lived.
>>>>
>>>> You can stop supposing that *you* are the doer.
>>>
>>>'you' is just a word for communication.
>>>i can give in to your cesspooling into a decidedly
>>>un-necessary word correction addiction but
>>>i'm sure that you could nitpick that to death too.
>>
>> Watch out or you'll get me vibrating to my addictions.
>>
>> To clarify, I was speaking of intention-volition.
>> (As if you didn't know.)
>
>you can stop supposing that *you* are the doer
What an outrageous suggestion.
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