"Keynes" <Keynes@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:2mar241h5th7v2iocelbdn0paktlvlpt6a@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Fri, 16 May 2008 11:32:37 -0400, "^@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>---*=#" <yomama@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Keynes" <Keynes@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>news:ev8r24dmks0r8o9j5oo1njk04o4k881dng@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> On Fri, 16 May 2008 10:54:53 -0400, "^@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>---*=#" <yomama@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Tang Huyen" <tanghuyen{delete}@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>>news:0ImdnXLCxpgD9bDVnZ2dnUVZ_qPinZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave K wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Buddha's two meditation teachers, Alara Kalama and Uddaka
>>>>>> Ramaputta attained the last two formless attainments and thought
they
>>>>>> had awakening. Kalama attained the "base of nothingness" and
>>>>>> Ramaputta "the base of neither perception nor non perception."
Those
>>>>>> are the highest possible states of absorption in the canon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In other words "You can't get any blanker."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The dominant myth about meditation (which I was suprised to find
with
>>>>>> Raan just now) is that it's merely something like this, a state of
>>>>>> blank conciousness an nonactivity, and nothing else. It's easy
>>>>>> enough to think "ok, if i stop thinking, I'll stop suffering, *BAM*
>>>>>> enlighenment. These two teachers thought they were enlightened
>>>>>> because of it, and lots of other people with lots of other
meditative
>>>>>> experiences have thought the same thing. The Buddha knew better
and
>>>>>> left them.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have never attained to anything close to these
>>>>> states, so I only talk book, but talking book,
>>>>> you are flat wrong:
>>>>>
>>>>> <<Those are the highest possible states of
>>>>> absorption in the canon.
>>>>>
>>>>> In other words "You can't get any blanker.">>
>>>>>
>>>>> To back up a little: the four form meditations
>>>>> and the four formless attainments are worldly
>>>>> states. Once in them, one can use them to
>>>>> meditate on the contemplations of impermanence,
>>>>> absence of self, suffering, emptiness, etc. and
>>>>> thus turn them into world-transcending states.
>>>>> They belong to calming (samatha), whereas such
>>>>> contemplations belong to insight/penetration
>>>>> (vipassana). As one gets up in the formless
>>>>> attainments, they become more and more abstract,
>>>>> more and more faint (your word: blank). As I said,
>>>>> the four form meditations and the four formless
>>>>> attainments are worldly states. The state of
>>>>> nothingness is the third highest formless state, and
>>>>> the state of neither-notion-nor-not-notion is the
>>>>> highest formless state, and is also called the summit
>>>>> of existence (bhava-agra), because it is the highest
>>>>> form of existence, meaning the highest state of
>>>>> faring-on (samsara). The Buddha calls it the state
>>>>> with a remainder of the compositions (the
>>>>> compositions being the fourth aggregate), and (here
>>>>> is where you go wrong), there is a next higher state,
>>>>> the cessation attainment (nirodha-samapatti), where
>>>>> all compositions cease and Nirvana is attained. The
>>>>> Buddha defines Nirvana as the complete calming of
>>>>> the compositions (sabba-sankhara-samatho), the
>>>>> non-doing or non-acting (an-abhi-sankhara), where
>>>>> sankhara "composition" comes from the stem kr- "to
>>>>> do, to act" as in karman "act, deed".
>>>>>
>>>>> However Nirvana can also be attained below the
>>>>> attainment of cessation by the complete calming of
>>>>> the compositions (sabba-sankhara-samatho), the
>>>>> non-doing or non-acting (an-abhi-sankhara). In each
>>>>> form meditation or in each formless attainment, one
>>>>> merely calms the compositions, and one is in
>>>>> Nirvana. There is no other requirement to Nirvana
>>>>> than the complete calming of the compositions, the
>>>>> non-doing or non-acting. Thus, even as it is peace,
>>>>> joy and bliss, it has no content, is content-free.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Buddha also defines Nirvana as the non-thinking
>>>>> (an-abhi-cetayana), where the stem is cit- "to think",
>>>>> as in citta "mind, thought", and the fourth aggregate,
>>>>> the compositions, is also called the volitions (cetana).
>>>>> Thus Nirvana is absence of doing, of acting
>>>>> (an-abhi-sankhara) and absence of thinking
>>>>> (an-abhi-cetayana). The attainment of cessation is
>>>>> where calming and insight/penetration combine and
>>>>> cooperate, so that all thinking and volition cease,
>>>>> gently and not forcibly. To force it would be
>>>>> contradictory because to force it would belong to
>>>>> thought, to volition, to the compositions. But as I said,
>>>>> all thinking and volition can also cease, gently and
>>>>> not forcibly, in each form meditation and formless
>>>>> attainment, and Nirvana is thereby attained.
>>>>>
>>>>> As to what you say: <<IMO, this may be the distinction
>>>>> that is made in zen between not-thinking and
>>>>> non-thinking. The buddha did not apply thought,
>>>>> because thoughts are ways of chopping up experience
>>>>> into bits, a bit like trying to look at a large area with a
>>>>> small flashlight. But he did apply his mind, which is
>>>>> better able to perceive the big picture.>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Could you explain, especially the distinction that is
>>>>> made in Zen between not-thinking and non-thinking?
>>>>> I have never heard of such, in Chinese Chan.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no application of mind in Nirvana, as in it all
>>>>> thought and volition cease. There is application of mind
>>>>> prior to Nirvana, to attain to it, but in it there is none,
>>>>> just peaceful, easeful rest. It is total absence of activity
>>>>> (remember, activity is kr- "to act, to do"). The big
>>>>> picture is reached when one opens up and does not do
>>>>> anything. Grace is bestowed on those who don't do
>>>>> anything, especially anything to deserve it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tang Huyen
>>>>
>>>>you cannot stop doing. you cannot stop
>>>>eating drinking ****ing sleeping nor stop
>>>>the felicity of the parasympathetic nervous
>>>>system or the many other functions that take
>>>>place automatically. this subatomic particle
>>>>mass in expression is bound and determined
>>>>to survive and you can't do much to stop it.
>>>>you're being taken for the ride of your life.
>>>>sit back and enjoy. you're not living, you
>>>>are being lived.
>>>
>>> You can stop supposing that *you* are the doer.
>>
>>'you' is just a word for communication.
>>i can give in to your cesspooling into a decidedly
>>un-necessary word correction addiction but
>>i'm sure that you could nitpick that to death too.
>
> Watch out or you'll get me vibrating to my addictions.
>
> To clarify, I was speaking of intention-volition.
> (As if you didn't know.)
you can stop supposing that *you* are the doer
|
