"Keynes" <Keynes@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:ev8r24dmks0r8o9j5oo1njk04o4k881dng@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Fri, 16 May 2008 10:54:53 -0400, "^@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>---*=#" <yomama@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Tang Huyen" <tanghuyen{delete}@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>news:0ImdnXLCxpgD9bDVnZ2dnUVZ_qPinZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave K wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Buddha's two meditation teachers, Alara Kalama and Uddaka
>>>> Ramaputta attained the last two formless attainments and thought they
>>>> had awakening. Kalama attained the "base of nothingness" and
>>>> Ramaputta "the base of neither perception nor non perception." Those
>>>> are the highest possible states of absorption in the canon.
>>>>
>>>> In other words "You can't get any blanker."
>>>>
>>>> The dominant myth about meditation (which I was suprised to find with
>>>> Raan just now) is that it's merely something like this, a state of
>>>> blank conciousness an nonactivity, and nothing else. It's easy
>>>> enough to think "ok, if i stop thinking, I'll stop suffering, *BAM*
>>>> enlighenment. These two teachers thought they were enlightened
>>>> because of it, and lots of other people with lots of other meditative
>>>> experiences have thought the same thing. The Buddha knew better and
>>>> left them.
>>>
>>> I have never attained to anything close to these
>>> states, so I only talk book, but talking book,
>>> you are flat wrong:
>>>
>>> <<Those are the highest possible states of
>>> absorption in the canon.
>>>
>>> In other words "You can't get any blanker.">>
>>>
>>> To back up a little: the four form meditations
>>> and the four formless attainments are worldly
>>> states. Once in them, one can use them to
>>> meditate on the contemplations of impermanence,
>>> absence of self, suffering, emptiness, etc. and
>>> thus turn them into world-transcending states.
>>> They belong to calming (samatha), whereas such
>>> contemplations belong to insight/penetration
>>> (vipassana). As one gets up in the formless
>>> attainments, they become more and more abstract,
>>> more and more faint (your word: blank). As I said,
>>> the four form meditations and the four formless
>>> attainments are worldly states. The state of
>>> nothingness is the third highest formless state, and
>>> the state of neither-notion-nor-not-notion is the
>>> highest formless state, and is also called the summit
>>> of existence (bhava-agra), because it is the highest
>>> form of existence, meaning the highest state of
>>> faring-on (samsara). The Buddha calls it the state
>>> with a remainder of the compositions (the
>>> compositions being the fourth aggregate), and (here
>>> is where you go wrong), there is a next higher state,
>>> the cessation attainment (nirodha-samapatti), where
>>> all compositions cease and Nirvana is attained. The
>>> Buddha defines Nirvana as the complete calming of
>>> the compositions (sabba-sankhara-samatho), the
>>> non-doing or non-acting (an-abhi-sankhara), where
>>> sankhara "composition" comes from the stem kr- "to
>>> do, to act" as in karman "act, deed".
>>>
>>> However Nirvana can also be attained below the
>>> attainment of cessation by the complete calming of
>>> the compositions (sabba-sankhara-samatho), the
>>> non-doing or non-acting (an-abhi-sankhara). In each
>>> form meditation or in each formless attainment, one
>>> merely calms the compositions, and one is in
>>> Nirvana. There is no other requirement to Nirvana
>>> than the complete calming of the compositions, the
>>> non-doing or non-acting. Thus, even as it is peace,
>>> joy and bliss, it has no content, is content-free.
>>>
>>> The Buddha also defines Nirvana as the non-thinking
>>> (an-abhi-cetayana), where the stem is cit- "to think",
>>> as in citta "mind, thought", and the fourth aggregate,
>>> the compositions, is also called the volitions (cetana).
>>> Thus Nirvana is absence of doing, of acting
>>> (an-abhi-sankhara) and absence of thinking
>>> (an-abhi-cetayana). The attainment of cessation is
>>> where calming and insight/penetration combine and
>>> cooperate, so that all thinking and volition cease,
>>> gently and not forcibly. To force it would be
>>> contradictory because to force it would belong to
>>> thought, to volition, to the compositions. But as I said,
>>> all thinking and volition can also cease, gently and
>>> not forcibly, in each form meditation and formless
>>> attainment, and Nirvana is thereby attained.
>>>
>>> As to what you say: <<IMO, this may be the distinction
>>> that is made in zen between not-thinking and
>>> non-thinking. The buddha did not apply thought,
>>> because thoughts are ways of chopping up experience
>>> into bits, a bit like trying to look at a large area with a
>>> small flashlight. But he did apply his mind, which is
>>> better able to perceive the big picture.>>
>>>
>>> Could you explain, especially the distinction that is
>>> made in Zen between not-thinking and non-thinking?
>>> I have never heard of such, in Chinese Chan.
>>>
>>> There is no application of mind in Nirvana, as in it all
>>> thought and volition cease. There is application of mind
>>> prior to Nirvana, to attain to it, but in it there is none,
>>> just peaceful, easeful rest. It is total absence of activity
>>> (remember, activity is kr- "to act, to do"). The big
>>> picture is reached when one opens up and does not do
>>> anything. Grace is bestowed on those who don't do
>>> anything, especially anything to deserve it.
>>>
>>> Tang Huyen
>>
>>you cannot stop doing. you cannot stop
>>eating drinking ****ing sleeping nor stop
>>the felicity of the parasympathetic nervous
>>system or the many other functions that take
>>place automatically. this subatomic particle
>>mass in expression is bound and determined
>>to survive and you can't do much to stop it.
>>you're being taken for the ride of your life.
>>sit back and enjoy. you're not living, you
>>are being lived.
>
> You can stop supposing that *you* are the doer.
'you' is just a word for communication.
i can give in to your cesspooling into a decidedly
un-necessary word correction addiction but
i'm sure that you could nitpick that to death too.
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