On Fri, 16 May 2008 10:54:53 -0400, "^@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>---*=#" <yomama@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>
>"Tang Huyen" <tanghuyen{delete}@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>news:0ImdnXLCxpgD9bDVnZ2dnUVZ_qPinZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
>> Dave K wrote:
>>
>>> The Buddha's two meditation teachers, Alara Kalama and Uddaka
>>> Ramaputta attained the last two formless attainments and thought they
>>> had awakening. Kalama attained the "base of nothingness" and
>>> Ramaputta "the base of neither perception nor non perception." Those
>>> are the highest possible states of absorption in the canon.
>>>
>>> In other words "You can't get any blanker."
>>>
>>> The dominant myth about meditation (which I was suprised to find with
>>> Raan just now) is that it's merely something like this, a state of
>>> blank conciousness an nonactivity, and nothing else. It's easy
>>> enough to think "ok, if i stop thinking, I'll stop suffering, *BAM*
>>> enlighenment. These two teachers thought they were enlightened
>>> because of it, and lots of other people with lots of other meditative
>>> experiences have thought the same thing. The Buddha knew better and
>>> left them.
>>
>> I have never attained to anything close to these
>> states, so I only talk book, but talking book,
>> you are flat wrong:
>>
>> <<Those are the highest possible states of
>> absorption in the canon.
>>
>> In other words "You can't get any blanker.">>
>>
>> To back up a little: the four form meditations
>> and the four formless attainments are worldly
>> states. Once in them, one can use them to
>> meditate on the contemplations of impermanence,
>> absence of self, suffering, emptiness, etc. and
>> thus turn them into world-transcending states.
>> They belong to calming (samatha), whereas such
>> contemplations belong to insight/penetration
>> (vipassana). As one gets up in the formless
>> attainments, they become more and more abstract,
>> more and more faint (your word: blank). As I said,
>> the four form meditations and the four formless
>> attainments are worldly states. The state of
>> nothingness is the third highest formless state, and
>> the state of neither-notion-nor-not-notion is the
>> highest formless state, and is also called the summit
>> of existence (bhava-agra), because it is the highest
>> form of existence, meaning the highest state of
>> faring-on (samsara). The Buddha calls it the state
>> with a remainder of the compositions (the
>> compositions being the fourth aggregate), and (here
>> is where you go wrong), there is a next higher state,
>> the cessation attainment (nirodha-samapatti), where
>> all compositions cease and Nirvana is attained. The
>> Buddha defines Nirvana as the complete calming of
>> the compositions (sabba-sankhara-samatho), the
>> non-doing or non-acting (an-abhi-sankhara), where
>> sankhara "composition" comes from the stem kr- "to
>> do, to act" as in karman "act, deed".
>>
>> However Nirvana can also be attained below the
>> attainment of cessation by the complete calming of
>> the compositions (sabba-sankhara-samatho), the
>> non-doing or non-acting (an-abhi-sankhara). In each
>> form meditation or in each formless attainment, one
>> merely calms the compositions, and one is in
>> Nirvana. There is no other requirement to Nirvana
>> than the complete calming of the compositions, the
>> non-doing or non-acting. Thus, even as it is peace,
>> joy and bliss, it has no content, is content-free.
>>
>> The Buddha also defines Nirvana as the non-thinking
>> (an-abhi-cetayana), where the stem is cit- "to think",
>> as in citta "mind, thought", and the fourth aggregate,
>> the compositions, is also called the volitions (cetana).
>> Thus Nirvana is absence of doing, of acting
>> (an-abhi-sankhara) and absence of thinking
>> (an-abhi-cetayana). The attainment of cessation is
>> where calming and insight/penetration combine and
>> cooperate, so that all thinking and volition cease,
>> gently and not forcibly. To force it would be
>> contradictory because to force it would belong to
>> thought, to volition, to the compositions. But as I said,
>> all thinking and volition can also cease, gently and
>> not forcibly, in each form meditation and formless
>> attainment, and Nirvana is thereby attained.
>>
>> As to what you say: <<IMO, this may be the distinction
>> that is made in zen between not-thinking and
>> non-thinking. The buddha did not apply thought,
>> because thoughts are ways of chopping up experience
>> into bits, a bit like trying to look at a large area with a
>> small flashlight. But he did apply his mind, which is
>> better able to perceive the big picture.>>
>>
>> Could you explain, especially the distinction that is
>> made in Zen between not-thinking and non-thinking?
>> I have never heard of such, in Chinese Chan.
>>
>> There is no application of mind in Nirvana, as in it all
>> thought and volition cease. There is application of mind
>> prior to Nirvana, to attain to it, but in it there is none,
>> just peaceful, easeful rest. It is total absence of activity
>> (remember, activity is kr- "to act, to do"). The big
>> picture is reached when one opens up and does not do
>> anything. Grace is bestowed on those who don't do
>> anything, especially anything to deserve it.
>>
>> Tang Huyen
>
>you cannot stop doing. you cannot stop
>eating drinking ****ing sleeping nor stop
>the felicity of the parasympathetic nervous
>system or the many other functions that take
>place automatically. this subatomic particle
>mass in expression is bound and determined
>to survive and you can't do much to stop it.
>you're being taken for the ride of your life.
>sit back and enjoy. you're not living, you
>are being lived.
You can stop supposing that *you* are the doer.
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