Re: Cats have 9 Lives; Stream Enterers have 7 Lives (was Re: No

On May 11, 5:36 pm, Keynes <Key...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On Sun, 11 May 2008 08:43:27 -0700 (PDT), DharmaTroll
<dharmatr...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On May 11, 11:15 am, Keynes <Key...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 11 May 2008 07:13:46 -0700 (PDT), DharmaTroll
<dharmatr...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >On May 11, 12:37 am, Robert Epstein <vze25...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> >> >> Well, first of all, if you were an enlightened master,
> >> >> I think you'd know it.
>
> >> >I'm not sure you would.  You might reflect on your having a good
time
> >> >or being happy, but since awakening tends to be expressed as a lack
of
> >> >neuroses, that is, the non-arising of craving, aversion, and
delusion,
> >> >and hence the non-arising of unneeded suffering, you might not
notice
> >> >the absence of them, only the positive things you happen to be
> >> >experiencing.
>
> >> So awakening is a contraction of awareness?
> >> That's a rationalization, a speculation, and
> >> pretty silly IMO.
>
> >Actually, you completely misinterpreted what I said, which is why it
> >sounds silly.
>
> >I said nothing about "contraction" what ever that might mean.
>
> >I'm saying we might not notice that we're perfectly healthy, but we
> >always notice when we're sick.  That's all I'm saying.  No
> >contractions.
>
> >> The zen literature is all about joyous epiphanies.
> >> The ground falls away and the sky takes it's place.
>
> >I've felt that intensely when smoking pot, riding on roller-coasters,
> >kissing girls, and looking at amazing works of art or spectacular
> >scenes in nature.  It only lasts a few seconds, if that, but time
> >seems to stop, and there are no thoughts, and just a sense of
> >wonder.
>
> >In fact, it was having my wisdom teeth removed where I felt wisdom
> >just about the strongest.  They were impacted and had to be cut in
> >half (in my mouth) and then removed piece by piece.  But my awesome
> >dentist gave me NO2, and it was one of the most amazing experiences in
> >my life.  I was at peace, felt no fear, and observed what was going on
> >with neutral curiosity and wonder, even though I'm normally sensitive
> >with things about my teeth.  I also felt timeless, and that everything
> >felt connected and perfect as if I were a character in a novel and
> >everything went together.
>
> >Furthermore, years later I was shocked to read that William James had
> >an almost identical experience with NO2, and I only wish I'd read that
> >earlier.  He wrote:
>
> >"Looking back on my own experiences [with nitrous oxide], they all
> >converge towards a kind of insight to which I cannot help ascribing
> >some metaphysical significance. The keynote of it is invariably a
> >reconciliation. It is as if the opposites of the world, whose
> >contradictoriness and conflict make all our difficulties and troubles,
> >were melted into unity. . . . This is a dark saying, I know, when thus
> >expressed in terms of common logic, but I cannot wholly escape from
> >its authority. I feel as if it must mean something, something like
> >what the Hegelian philosophy means, if one could only lay hold of it
> >more clearly. Those who have ears to hear, let them hear; to me the
> >living sense of its reality only comes in the artificial mystic state
> >of mind."
>
> >[Quote taken
fromhttp://www.theatlantic.com/issues/96may/nitrous/nitrous.htm
> >]
>
> >So, no, I don't take such experiences to be enlightenment, mainly
> >'cause I've had a lot of'em, and I'm not enlightened.  I'm not even a
> >stream-enterer -- maybe just a big-toe-wetter.  While I would expect
> >to have a lot more moments like those if enlightened, I see
> >enlightenment as health -- that is a lack of illness or disease --
> >rather than a gaining of superpowers.
>
> >> Is there really any mysticism of any kind that depends on
unconsciousness?
>
> >I have no idea what you mean by that, but I think all of our conscious
> >experiences depend on the unconscious or subconscious, as the
> >conscious 'spotlight' is just the tip of the iceberg of our psyches.
>
> >> >> Second of all, the real test of enlightenment [leaving Mastery
> >> >> side for a moment] is how you do when you don't have what you
want, when
> >> >> things don't go your way.
>
> >> >Yeah, but maybe that's the only test and there is no first test.
> >> >Maybe it's only in moments where we experience obsessive thoughts of
> >> >craving and aversion and delusion and so forth that we know we're
not
> >> >awakened.  That is, were I awakened, I might not know it unless you
> >> >bugged me about it and insisted I figure it out and then I said,
"come
> >> >to think of it, Robert, it's been so long since I've had any craving
> >> >or aversion or attachment to anything, and I experience each breath
> >> >and each bite of each meal fully and life is great, even when I had
to
> >> >do my taxes and my girlfriend had PMS".  And then you'd say, "wow
Tom,
> >> >I think you're finally an arahant".  And I'd say "cool".  But it
would
> >> >be an inference, based on non-arising of self-stuff, rather than an
> >> >experience of something special.  That's my guess.
>
> >> Look for lack of fear.  Lack of clinging and grasping.
> >> Lack of purpose.  Patience.  Centeredness.
> >> There are ways to check yourself.
>
> >Again, you can't see a 'lack' of something.  Lack of fear doesn't look
> >like or feel like anything, because it doesn't exist because it is a
> >lack!  Which I why I'm saying you know when you are scared, but you
> >don't think "look, I'm experiencing a lack of fear right now" any more
> >than you think to yourself, "look, I'm experiencing a lack of the
> >presence of space-aliens right now."  Or maybe you do think that,
> >Keynes, when you're wearing that tin foil hat of yours, eh?
>
> >--DharmaTroll
>
> We've landed on one of my favorite topics.
> Here I'll agree with you.  It's impossible to
> perceive what isn't there to be perceived.
>
> So how can we perceive any loss or absence?

Yes, that sounds like what I'm saying.  We don't perceive being
healthy, but when we're ill we feel the sore throat.  I never have the
thought "hey, my throat isn't sore" unless I were ill for a long time
and then woke up without a sore throat, perhaps.

> Thats what birth and death, gain and loss are
> all about isn't it?

I don't know.  I'm not sure what you mean by that.  You'd have to
clarify a bit.

--DharmaTroll