On Sun, 11 May 2008 11:22:18 -0700 (PDT), DharmaTroll
<dharmatroll@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>On May 11, 1:07 pm, Keynes <Key...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 May 2008 08:43:27 -0700 (PDT), DharmaTroll
<dharmatr...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On May 11, 11:15 am, Keynes <Key...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 11 May 2008 07:13:46 -0700 (PDT), DharmaTroll
<dharmatr...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> >> wrote:
>>
>> >> >On May 11, 12:37 am, Robert Epstein <vze25...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> Well, first of all, if you were an enlightened master,
>> >> >> I think you'd know it.
>>
>> >> >I'm not sure you would. You might reflect on your having a good
time
>> >> >or being happy, but since awakening tends to be expressed as a lack
of
>> >> >neuroses, that is, the non-arising of craving, aversion, and
delusion,
>> >> >and hence the non-arising of unneeded suffering, you might not
notice
>> >> >the absence of them, only the positive things you happen to be
>> >> >experiencing.
>>
>> >> So awakening is a contraction of awareness?
>> >> That's a rationalization, a speculation, and
>> >> pretty silly IMO.
>>
>> >Actually, you completely misinterpreted what I said, which is why it
>> >sounds silly.
>>
>> You said "you might not notice the absence of them.."
>> Isn't this a contraction of awareness rather than expansion?
>
>No, it certainly is not!
>
>First, springs and muscles contract and expand.
>
>Second, there is no such thing (literally) as 'awareness'.
>
>That's just a language game. Aware is a predicate, not a thing. It
>is a relation****p. There is no such thing as 'awareness' just as
>there is no such thing as 'between-ness' but between is a
>relation****p. So there is just being aware of something or some
>thought or feeling or other. There certainly is no thing that is
>contracting and expanding. It's easy to get muddled on this.
>
In case you haven't noticed we are playing the language game,
and only little children keep changing the rules in the middle
so they can win. Cheer up. I'm going to let you win because
you can't bear to lose. But not yet. No premature ejaculation.
>> If you don't want to sound silly, don't say silly things
>> and then blame other folks for thinking you know
>> what you're talking about.
>
>Sorry, Keynes, I will not take responsibility for your being clueless.
>And for God sakes, take off that silly hat when we're having a
>conversation.
>
Now you're just trying to hurt my feelings.
I'm crushed. Hat and all.
>> >I said nothing about "contraction" what ever that might mean.
>>
>> >I'm saying we might not notice that we're perfectly healthy, but we
>> >always notice when we're sick. That's all I'm saying. No
>> >contractions.
>>
>> You are now thinking dualisticly as is the common
>
>There you go with one of your woo-woo words "dualistically".
>
>It's one of those words like "God" that lots of people use to mean a
>different thing every sentence and it turns out to just water down the
>term to meaninglessness.
>
Dualism (in case you didn't get the bulletin) is the
conceptual division of perceptions into exclusive
polarities of dubious validity and parentage.
(And it appears to me and possibly others that
you are getting unnecessarily weasely too soon.)
>> Dualists can only think this OR that, one thing OR the other,
>> one thing at a time, and that's it.
>
>No, you want the word 'linear' (another terribly misused term) if
>you're talking about an ordered sequence of events.
>
'Linear' is another bogus swindle.
Give up your 'linear dualitiy' and join
me on the moon. I have candy.
>> "End of story. Can't beat my aces, ipso facto."
>
>Yeah I can -- I've got the nut flush.
>
When I put something in quotes I'm channeling
the great minds of past and future, such as yourself.
I would never say such things myself.
>> >> The zen literature is all about joyous epiphanies.
>> >> The ground falls away and the sky takes it's place.
>>
>> >I've felt that intensely when smoking pot, riding on roller-coasters,
>> >kissing girls, and looking at amazing works of art or spectacular
>> >scenes in nature. It only lasts a few seconds, if that, but time
>> >seems to stop, and there are no thoughts, and just a sense of
>> >wonder.
>>
>> How about now, when you're masturbating?
>
>Now, no, when masturbating, on occasion.
>
You're soaking in it.
>> I'm not saying emotions are awakening, but that
>> release is weightless ecstacy that may last for weeks.
>
>I think that is rather silly. In my years of experience meditating,
>I've found that I went from moods that lasted a long time (especially
>unpleasant ones) years ago, to ones that only last minutes or
>seconds.
>
>My experience has been that at the start of my meditation practice I
>had long moods like the rain here in Wa****ngton, DC -- when it rains
>and is muggy and yucky in the morning, it's probably going to be like
>that all day and maybe tomorrow as well.
>
>My present experience after years of meditation is like Florida
>weather when I go to visit my extended family and hang out at the
>beach. It's pouring rain out and I say "oh well, no beach for me
>today". I go get my book, find the page where I left off, am about to
>sit down and I look up and the sun is ****ning. Well that's how my
>moods are now. I still get bad moods as well as good ones, but they
>all come and go and very quickly. Last night when I had thoughts
>about some rude person and I suddenly felt anger and tension in my
>body (now that's actual contraction -- of muscles in my shoulders and
>so forth) I watched it and in about a minute or two it passed and I
>felt great again.
>
>Sounds to me like you have an ideal of permanence and you idealize
>blissful states or orgasms to last for weeks, or eventually
>permanently.
I'm speaking from experience, not theorizing.
You are free to believe it or not. But what will
you gain from not believing?
The long and lonesome road has an end.
Read all about it in the literature.
>I found that it doesn't work like that. Rather, the
>secret is not being attached to the good states or resistant to the
>bad ones, and then they come and go on their own and quickly. The
>goal of being locked into a positive state was also mine for many
>meditation retreats. And so much frustration I had after a blissful
>sitting, trying to get that back the rest of the retreat when I was
>feeling something else. It has taken me years to let go of those
>expectations and realize that being in the present moment is just
>sitting on your cu****on and taking whatever you get and watching it
>arise out of nowhere and then pass away again.
>
Mindfulness meditation is beneficial.
>What you want is to end your "dualism" by chopping off the south pole
>of the magnet and only having the north pole. But you don't get non-
>dualism, Keynes. You get two fragmented magnets both with a south and
>a north pole. They always go together. Sorry to disappoint you
>Keynes. (Oh that's right, I won't disappoint you, as you'll simply
>ignore what I say, hurl insults at me, and then put on your tin foil
>hat and babble some more.)
>
Your mind is wandering.
Just thought you'd like to know.
>> >In fact, it was having my wisdom teeth removed where I felt wisdom
>> >just about the strongest. They were impacted and had to be cut in
>> >half (in my mouth) and then removed piece by piece. But my awesome
>> >dentist gave me NO2, and it was one of the most amazing experiences in
>> >my life. I was at peace, felt no fear, and observed what was going on
>> >with neutral curiosity and wonder, even though I'm normally sensitive
>> >with things about my teeth. I also felt timeless, and that everything
>> >felt connected and perfect as if I were a character in a novel and
>> >everything went together.
>>
>> >Furthermore, years later I was shocked to read that William James had
>> >an almost identical experience with NO2, and I only wish I'd read that
>> >earlier. He wrote:
>>
>> >"Looking back on my own experiences [with nitrous oxide], they all
>> >converge towards a kind of insight to which I cannot help ascribing
>> >some metaphysical significance. The keynote of it is invariably a
>> >reconciliation. It is as if the opposites of the world, whose
>> >contradictoriness and conflict make all our difficulties and troubles,
>> >were melted into unity. . . . This is a dark saying, I know, when thus
>> >expressed in terms of common logic, but I cannot wholly escape from
>> >its authority. I feel as if it must mean something, something like
>> >what the Hegelian philosophy means, if one could only lay hold of it
>> >more clearly. Those who have ears to hear, let them hear; to me the
>> >living sense of its reality only comes in the artificial mystic state
>> >of mind."
>>
>> >[Quote taken
fromhttp://www.theatlantic.com/issues/96may/nitrous/nitrous.htm
>>
>> >So, no, I don't take such experiences to be enlightenment, mainly
>> >'cause I've had a lot of'em, and I'm not enlightened. I'm not even a
>> >stream-enterer -- maybe just a big-toe-wetter. While I would expect
>> >to have a lot more moments like those if enlightened, I see
>> >enlightenment as health -- that is a lack of illness or disease --
>> >rather than a gaining of superpowers.
>>
>> >> Is there really any mysticism of any kind that depends on
unconsciousness?
>>
>> >I have no idea what you mean by that, but I think all of our conscious
>> >experiences depend on the unconscious or subconscious, as the
>> >conscious 'spotlight' is just the tip of the iceberg of our psyches.
>>
>> Don't they sell cremora where you live?
>
>No. They don't even sell pot here legally -- I live in a pretty
>repressive environment.
>
>> The brain is a steam powered machine operating
>
>No, the brain is not a steam powered machine. What planet are you
>from?
>
Would you believe ropes and springs?
>> on the latest scientific principles as we have finally
>> discovered. The loons and idiots of the past had
>> no idea how great we have finally become, the
>> masters of all misunderstandings, half-truths,
>> panaceas, and the pinacle of all possible wisdom.
>> So says I, so say we all.
>>
>> Why don't you get a mechanic to fix your mind
>> for you? That would be the logical thing to do.
>> You'd probably mess it up all by yourself, what
>> with all the gaskets and piping.
>
>If I had a brain tumor, I'd certainly get a mechanic, called a brain
>surgeon, to operate on me. However, the reason I don't do that is
>that the existential problem of suffering and the end of suffering
>happens to be a software issue, not a hardware one.
>
Hey, it's all hardware.
There's no such thing as software, so I've been told.
>> >> >> Second of all, the real test of enlightenment [leaving Mastery
>> >> >> side for a moment] is how you do when you don't have what you
want, when
>> >> >> things don't go your way.
>>
>> >> >Yeah, but maybe that's the only test and there is no first test.
>> >> >Maybe it's only in moments where we experience obsessive thoughts
of
>> >> >craving and aversion and delusion and so forth that we know we're
not
>> >> >awakened. That is, were I awakened, I might not know it unless you
>> >> >bugged me about it and insisted I figure it out and then I said,
"come
>> >> >to think of it, Robert, it's been so long since I've had any
craving
>> >> >or aversion or attachment to anything, and I experience each breath
>> >> >and each bite of each meal fully and life is great, even when I had
to
>> >> >do my taxes and my girlfriend had PMS". And then you'd say, "wow
Tom,
>> >> >I think you're finally an arahant". And I'd say "cool". But it
would
>> >> >be an inference, based on non-arising of self-stuff, rather than an
>> >> >experience of something special. That's my guess.
>>
>> >> Look for lack of fear. Lack of clinging and grasping.
>> >> Lack of purpose. Patience. Centeredness.
>> >> There are ways to check yourself.
>>
>> >Again, you can't see a 'lack' of something. Lack of fear doesn't look
>> >like or feel like anything, because it doesn't exist because it is a
>> >lack!
If you faced immanent death or the loss of loved
ones or of all you own, you'd probably expect to fear it.
But if that circumstance didn't produce any anxiety,
you might well notice it.
Why are you parsing the parsley?
Fun's fun, but there's also serious business
to handle until there's no more serious business
to take care of. Clear the desk, then pour the whiskey.
>>>Which I why I'm saying you know when you are scared, but you
>> >don't think "look, I'm experiencing a lack of fear right now" any more
>> >than you think to yourself, "look, I'm experiencing a lack of the
>> >presence of space-aliens right now." Or maybe you do think that,
>> >Keynes, when you're wearing that tin foil hat of yours, eh?
>>
>> >--DharmaTroll
>>
>> Here's what I mean by 'contraction'. You are asserting
>> logical dualism and exclusivity - if it's one way it must
>> exclude the other. That's not how it is beyond dualism.
>
>You mean I'm asserting that if you are rambling like a lunatic that
>you therefore aren't saying anything rational and coherent. Um, yes,
>I'm saying that. And as for the beyond dualism bit, you're trying to
>chop that south pole off your magnets again, and now you've got metal
>filings all stuck to your tin foil hat.
Magnetic aluminium. Another wonder!
>What a mess you've made!
>
Don't blame your impatience and lack of comprehension
on me. Fixing me will not fix you.
Every mountain has a sunny side and a shady side,
the yang and the yin. Is the mountain sunny or is
it shady, or both, or is it just a mountain after all?
Pick a card and throw away all the others.
How else can we be truly reasonable?
>> (How do you like my hat? I wear it just for you. Kiss kiss.)
>
>Sounds like some village somewhere is missing their idiot.
>
>--DharmaTroll
Well tell them to go to hell, and that you're staying right here!
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