On 14 Feb, 22:01, "Allen L. Barker" <a...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> jfez...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> > On 14 Feb, 13:00, Hollywood Lee <hollywood...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >> jfez...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> >>> On 14 Feb, 10:45, Hollywood Lee <hollywood...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >>>> jfez...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> >>>>> On 14 Feb, 08:05, Hollywood Lee <hollywood...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >>>>>> jfez...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 14 Feb, 07:24, Hollywood Lee <hollywood...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> jfez...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 14 Feb, 06:40, Hollywood Lee <hollywood...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> jfez...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Feb, 20:10, oxtail <oxt...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> jfez...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Feb, 18:48, oxtail <oxt...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> jfez...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Feb, 17:03, oxtail <oxt...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hollywood Lee wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oxtail wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hollywood Lee wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oxtail wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hollywood Lee wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jfez...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's interesting the 'how' that you keep
mentioning. It's a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mindbender
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to think about that. To me there's
ultimately no how in it. If
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you just let everything be without making
anything from it then the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how has disappeared. But then the question can
come up how do I make
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the how disappear? But you can't do it :) To me
it's something that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happens on it's own and it's about allowing it to
happen. So then
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there can be the question how do I allow it to
happen and it just
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> goes
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round and round. In meditation there has to be a
how to know what to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do. For me meditation is about letting go of the
how. That's where
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effortless effort comes in if theres any effort
it's bare minimum in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such a way that it encourages effort and how to
disappear. To me
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrender or letting go happens on its own that
way. Not that I'm
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saying I'm right about it that's just what I see
happening with it ;)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that life has a way of making us
think about all
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sorts of who, what, when, where, and how
questions. So, I don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think we can really eliminate these sorts of
questions forever,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even if they can be calmed, even set aside for
periods of time. It
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may even be useful to reflect on which of these
questions, if any,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lead to the ending of suffering - assuming, of
course, that is a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motivating idea for you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From this perspective, I've found that "what"
sorts of questions,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially "whats" grounded in speculative
ontologies, aren't very
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> useful for me. And that "how" questions regarding
how to live my
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life, have been more useful.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YMMV.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For what?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the ending of suffering. Again, YMMV.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What suffering?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sorry. I made the mistake of taking you
seriously. I'll try not to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the future.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is suffering?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~Oxtail
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suffering is knowing that you're going to have to die
but you don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to die so you resist it and resist it and torture
yourself with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it hoping that there can be some other way. But there's
no other way
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there's only resisting it or giving into it. You're
hoping that you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can do something with it but you can't and you can see
that you can't.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only thing you can do is look at those two choices
square in the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> face. That's got nothing to do with me or anyone else
it's just the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way it is.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that suffers?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To me that question is only more thinking.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's natural for the self to suffer.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it natural for the awareness to suffer?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~Oxtail
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there any need to split your experience into parts like
awareness
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and self? Suffering happens along with everything else
that happens
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and we are aware of it. But to me it's difficult to
separate my
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> awareness from my body or my thoughts and say that it's
different. To
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> me it's just when we need to talk about it it's split up
but in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> experience it's a whole thing nothing is separated from
anything else.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> What is in charge of the whole thing?
> >>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ~Oxtail
> >>>>>>>>>>> Oxtail is :)
> >>>>>>>>>>> I think I can see what you're getting at that awareness is
basic to
> >>>>>>>>>>> what we are and it's free from any humanness. In a sense you
could say
> >>>>>>>>>>> awareness is all we have because thoughts can't be counted
on to know
> >>>>>>>>>>> anything. It's when it's taken to the extreme and you see
people say
> >>>>>>>>>>> 'You are awareness' to me that's only partly true.
> >>>>>>>>>> Hmm. You say "awareness is basic to what we are and it's
free from any
> >>>>>>>>>> humanness." Why privilege awareness as an attribute
different from or
> >>>>>>>>>> free of our human characteristics? At a purely experiential
level, I
> >>>>>>>>>> appear aware, I seem to have choices regarding thought and
action,
> >>>>>>>>>> speeding trucks seem good to avoid (if only to annoy keynes),
and on.
> >>>>>>>>>> All of this may be wrong, but it doesn't appear so. And,
after all,
> >>>>>>>>>> what do we know except what appears to our senses and what we
can then
> >>>>>>>>>> infer with some degree of reliability?
> >>>>>>>>> What you just said is what I'm saying about it. It seems to me
that
> >>>>>>>>> saying anything is splitting it up and is not fully true so
words are
> >>>>>>>>> misleading in that way. When I look at it there's nothing I
can say
> >>>>>>>>> that will express it fully so there's no need to get tangled
in saying
> >>>>>>>>> it's this or that. It's beyond words in that way don't you
think?
> >>>>>>>> I suppose its beyond words only if you insist that words must
provide
> >>>>>>>> perfect descriptions or no descriptions at all.
> >>>>>>> I don't understand why you said that. Seeing that it's beyond
words
> >>>>>>> doesn't mean you can't say anything you can say what you like.
> >>>>>> I don't understand why you say awareness is beyond words - any
more than
> >>>>>> any thingie in our experience is beyond words if you insist on
some one
> >>>>>> for one correspondence between words and what is described.
> >>>>> I didn't say awareness is beyond words.
> >>>> OK.
> >>> I think the mix up comes from wanting an answer in thoughts rather
> >>> than looking at it. If you look directly at your experience is there
> >>> anything you can say that will express what it is? What I'm saying
is
> >>> based on that but there isn't anything for thoughts to know in that.
> >> Not sure I agree. I can look at experience and say all sorts of
things
> >> that are useful to a Buddhist practice. I think the Buddha did the
same
> >> thing when he talked about reflecting on our thoughts and deeds to
see
> >> which are skillful and which are unskillful.
>
> > You can say words forever about it but it's only by actually looking
> > at it that you see it not by thinking about looking at it.
>
> Can you really see it? Or have you just learned the formulas
> and the Zen platitudes? Can you see it *right now*, or just
> as some past memory of when you had an insight?
>
> Just rhetorical questions. Do you practice zazen, or some
> other meditation practice? In posts like this you seem to
> be expressing something, but then in others, it seems like
> it is back to the category-bound thinking.
I look at it right now to say what I'm saying. I do meditate. Are you
sure the category bound thinking is mine or yours? If I say something
that to me is very simple but someone else says it's zennie then who
is making it zennie?
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