On 14 Feb, 08:05, Hollywood Lee <hollywood...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> jfez...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> > On 14 Feb, 07:24, Hollywood Lee <hollywood...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >> jfez...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> >>> On 14 Feb, 06:40, Hollywood Lee <hollywood...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >>>> jfez...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> >>>>> On 13 Feb, 20:10, oxtail <oxt...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >>>>>> jfez...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 13 Feb, 18:48, oxtail <oxt...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> jfez...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 13 Feb, 17:03, oxtail <oxt...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Hollywood Lee wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> oxtail wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hollywood Lee wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> oxtail wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hollywood Lee wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jfez...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's interesting the 'how' that you keep mentioning.
It's a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mindbender
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to think about that. To me there's ultimately no
how in it. If
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you just let everything be without making anything from
it then the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how has disappeared. But then the question can come up
how do I make
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the how disappear? But you can't do it :) To me it's
something that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happens on it's own and it's about allowing it to
happen. So then
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there can be the question how do I allow it to happen
and it just
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> goes
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round and round. In meditation there has to be a how to
know what to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do. For me meditation is about letting go of the how.
That's where
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effortless effort comes in if theres any effort it's
bare minimum in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such a way that it encourages effort and how to
disappear. To me
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrender or letting go happens on its own that way.
Not that I'm
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saying I'm right about it that's just what I see
happening with it ;)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that life has a way of making us think
about all
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sorts of who, what, when, where, and how questions. So,
I don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think we can really eliminate these sorts of questions
forever,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even if they can be calmed, even set aside for periods
of time. It
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may even be useful to reflect on which of these
questions, if any,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lead to the ending of suffering - assuming, of course,
that is a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motivating idea for you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From this perspective, I've found that "what" sorts of
questions,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially "whats" grounded in speculative ontologies,
aren't very
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> useful for me. And that "how" questions regarding how
to live my
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life, have been more useful.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YMMV.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For what?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> For the ending of suffering. Again, YMMV.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> What suffering?
> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm sorry. I made the mistake of taking you seriously.
I'll try not to
> >>>>>>>>>>> in the future.
> >>>>>>>>>> What is suffering?
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>> ~Oxtail
> >>>>>>>>> Suffering is knowing that you're going to have to die but you
don't
> >>>>>>>>> want to die so you resist it and resist it and torture
yourself with
> >>>>>>>>> it hoping that there can be some other way. But there's no
other way
> >>>>>>>>> there's only resisting it or giving into it. You're hoping
that you
> >>>>>>>>> can do something with it but you can't and you can see that
you can't.
> >>>>>>>>> The only thing you can do is look at those two choices square
in the
> >>>>>>>>> face. That's got nothing to do with me or anyone else it's
just the
> >>>>>>>>> way it is.
> >>>>>>>> What is it that suffers?
> >>>>>>> To me that question is only more thinking.
> >>>>>>>> It's natural for the self to suffer.
> >>>>>>>> Is it natural for the awareness to suffer?
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> ~Oxtail
> >>>>>>> Is there any need to split your experience into parts like
awareness
> >>>>>>> and self? Suffering happens along with everything else that
happens
> >>>>>>> and we are aware of it. But to me it's difficult to separate my
> >>>>>>> awareness from my body or my thoughts and say that it's
different. To
> >>>>>>> me it's just when we need to talk about it it's split up but in
> >>>>>>> experience it's a whole thing nothing is separated from anything
else.
> >>>>>> What is in charge of the whole thing?
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> ~Oxtail
> >>>>> Oxtail is :)
> >>>>> I think I can see what you're getting at that awareness is basic
to
> >>>>> what we are and it's free from any humanness. In a sense you could
say
> >>>>> awareness is all we have because thoughts can't be counted on to
know
> >>>>> anything. It's when it's taken to the extreme and you see people
say
> >>>>> 'You are awareness' to me that's only partly true.
> >>>> Hmm. You say "awareness is basic to what we are and it's free from
any
> >>>> humanness." Why privilege awareness as an attribute different from
or
> >>>> free of our human characteristics? At a purely experiential level,
I
> >>>> appear aware, I seem to have choices regarding thought and action,
> >>>> speeding trucks seem good to avoid (if only to annoy keynes), and
on.
> >>>> All of this may be wrong, but it doesn't appear so. And, after
all,
> >>>> what do we know except what appears to our senses and what we can
then
> >>>> infer with some degree of reliability?
> >>> What you just said is what I'm saying about it. It seems to me that
> >>> saying anything is splitting it up and is not fully true so words
are
> >>> misleading in that way. When I look at it there's nothing I can say
> >>> that will express it fully so there's no need to get tangled in
saying
> >>> it's this or that. It's beyond words in that way don't you think?
>
> >> I suppose its beyond words only if you insist that words must provide
> >> perfect descriptions or no descriptions at all.
>
> > I don't understand why you said that. Seeing that it's beyond words
> > doesn't mean you can't say anything you can say what you like.
>
> I don't understand why you say awareness is beyond words - any more than
> any thingie in our experience is beyond words if you insist on some one
> for one correspondence between words and what is described.
I didn't say awareness is beyond words.
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