Re: Why was Jesus crucified?

On May 13, 6:00=A0am, Keynes <Key...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 May 2008 04:14:20 GMT, Robert Epstein <vze25...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wr=
ote:
> >Keynes wrote:
>
> >> On Mon, 12 May 2008 17:05:09 GMT, Robert Epstein
<vze25...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>=
 wrote:
>
> >>>chazwin wrote:
>
> >>>>On 30 Mar, 00:46, Robert Epstein <vze25...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> >>>>>saint7pe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
>
> >>>>>>On Mar 29, 2:39 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>On Mar 29, 2:06 pm, "<<<~A John 3:16 Whosoever~>>>"
>
> >>>>>>><kaseybec...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>On Mar 29, 1:39 pm, David <pchristain...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>"The first question that arises is: Why was Jesus crucified?
> >>>>>>>>>Was it because he was a good man - sinless in fact- who
> >>>>>>>>>during a very short teaching ministry said wise things that
> >>>>>>>>>other Jews had also said? Or because he performed
> >>>>>>>>>remarkable miracles of healing, helping many people?
> >>>>>>>>>For no legal reason that is ever given, the Jews seized
> >>>>>>>>>him and arranged for Pontius Pilate to crucify him.
> >>>>>>>>>Pilate, administering Roman justice, threw in a couple
> >>>>>>>>>of thieves and executed them also, although it would be
> >>>>>>>>>contrary to the Roman system of law to give capital
> >>>>>>>>>punishment for any but the most serious crimes."
>
> >>>>>>>>Jesus was crucified because it fulfilled prophecy concerning the
> >>>>>>>>Messiah (see how simple that was?).
>
> >>>>>>>Heh, read Deuteronomy 13. =A0The loving father god of Jesus was
> >>>>>>>obviously not the same God as angry, jealous, puni****ng, racist
> >>>>>>>Jehovah. =A0And the Pharisees knew it and they had their
instructio=
ns.
>
> >>>>>>>Also, Jesus poked the Pharisees in the ribs with their own
> >>>>>>>hypocrisies. =A0That by itself guaranteed the death sentence.
=A0Bu=
t Jesus
> >>>>>>>also "defiled" the Temple, and that too is a punishable by death.
=
=A0If
> >>>>>>>you read some of the Gospels, you find the Sanhedrin hired Judas
> >>>>>>>within a few days of the Temple incident.
>
> >>>>>>>TCross
>
> >>>>>>The real question, Terry, is not why did the Jews want to crucify
> >>>>>>Jesus, but why did Jesus allow them to crucify Him? =A0The
relevant
> >>>>>>passages are:
>
> >>>>>>John 19
>
> >>>>>>[10] Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me?
knowest
> >>>>>>thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to
releas=
e
> >>>>>>thee?
> >>>>>>[11] Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against
me,
> >>>>>>except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered
me=

> >>>>>>unto thee hath the greater sin.
> >>>>>>[12] And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the
Jews=

> >>>>>>cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's
> >>>>>>friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
>
> >>>>>>By His own testimony, Jesus was crucified by the spiritual force
tha=
t
> >>>>>>came through the Jews and probably is still coming through them to
> >>>>>>this day. =A0Was that spiritual force JHVH? =A0Or was it Satan?
=A0T=
here are
> >>>>>>many possibilities and a true analysis might be very difficult,
> >>>>>>requiring more persistence to uncover than the JFK or RFK or MLK
or =
MX
> >>>>>>assassinations. =A0One must be careful not to judge G-D by human
> >>>>>>standards of good and evil. =A0G-D's purpose may be more to teach
us=
 to
> >>>>>>transcend this world than to improve this world. =A0Still, the
issue=
 of
> >>>>>>racism and deception to cover up the racism looms large in the
histo=
ry
> >>>>>>of the Jews. =A0Such a double standard seems very difficult if not
> >>>>>>impossible to rationalize in any legitimate way. =A0It is the ten
> >>>>>>thousand pound gorilla in the foyer that no one wants to
acknowledge=

> >>>>>>as real.
>
> >>>>>Pilate was not a Jew.
>
> >>>>Pilate was the Roman governor of Judea. He washes his hands of the
> >>>>crucifiction and gave the Jews the choice who to kill because it was
> >>>>their holy festival of the passover.
> >>>>The Jews killed Jesus.
>
> >>>He washed his hands because he didn't want to deal with the
consequence=
s
> >>>of killing a charismatic Jew under his rule. =A0"The Jews" did not
kill=

> >>>Jesus. =A0The ruling body of the Jews at that time handed him over to
t=
he
> >>>Romans, who killed him. =A0The ruling body of the Pharisees DID NOT
and=
 DO
> >>>NOT represent the Jews of the time, or their point of view on Jesus.
> >>>All of Jesus' followers at that time were Jewish as well. =A0Blame
the
> >>>Roman and Jewish authorities who jointly carried out the execution.
Not=

> >>>"The Jews" as if they were a monolithic body. =A0This globalized
prejud=
ice
> >>>has gone on long enough, and is not accurate.
>
> >>>It's like holding all Americans responsible for Iraq, although Bush
wen=
t
> >>>in over massive objections.
>
> >>>>>The Jews did not crucify Jesus.
> >>>>>"The Jews" as a body did not want to crucify Jesus.
> >>>>>Both the Jewish elders who assented to his crucifixion after the
issu=
e
> >>>>>was thrown back to them by the Roman authorities AND Jesus'
followers=

> >>>>>were Jewish, so there is no "The Jews" who wanted to cruficy
anyone.
>
> >>>>The Jewish authorities were instrumental in bringing Jesus to
justice
> >>>>for all his blasphemy and political agitation.
>
> >>>Right, and they were one particular political body in a particular
time=

> >>>and place. =A0The Romans who carried out the execution with their
barba=
ric
> >>>methods are equally responsible, and the Jews as a people have no
blame=

> >>>for the murder.
>
> >>>The Pharisees ruled with permission of the Romans. =A0Any Pharisee
who =
did
> >>>not accept the Roman ways of doing things would not have been allowed
t=
o
> >>>serve as an elder. =A0Yet, the Romans get a clean bill of health,
while=

> >>>the Jews as an entire people get centuries of persecution. =A0Is that
f=
air?
>
> >>>>>Throughout most of history, the Jews have been persecuted within
ever=
y
> >>>>>society in which they have existed. =A0To say that they have been
gui=
lty
> >>>>>of racism and covering up racism is an amazing distortion.
>
> >>>>We see it here on NG every day. Jews are no different to gentiles -
> >>>>there are examples of racists in every human group.
>
> >>>Except that the Jews have been selected over the centuries for an
> >>>unusual degree of hatred and persecution. =A0Other than that, they
are =
as
> >>>diverse and flawed as any other group.
>
> >>>>>You are a foolish and inaccurate anti-semite.
>
> >>>>Now who is being racist?
>
> >>>It is not "racist" to call someone an anti-semite. =A0Someone who is
> >>>against Jews and is prejudiced towards Jews is an anti-semite. =A0It
is=
 a
> >>>simple definition which does not apply to any particular race.
=A0That =
is
> >>>obvious, so you are not using the term very well.
>
> >>>"Foolish," "inaccurate" and "anti-semite" may be insulting, but they
ar=
e
> >>>not racial insults.
>
> >>>Robert
>
> >>>=3D =3D =3D =3D =3D
>
> >> I think the jews have been persecuted for the
> >> reason that their religion demands separation
> >> from non-jews. =A0It preserves the religion by
> >> non-asymilation, but it leads to distrust among
> >> non-jews, and a honking big superiority complex
> >> among the orthodox. (racism? =A0How can God's
> >> own chosen people ever be wrong about anything?)
>
> >> Also many jews have been above average scholars
> >> and thinkers who rise to positions of influence. =A0
> >> This leads to jealosy. =A0Some of them have been
> >> talented financiers, and when the economy knocks
> >> you down and keeps you down, it's easy to blame
> >> the jews.
>
> >> I don't think the germans gave a damn about
> >> Jesus or the crucifixion. =A0All the pograms,
> >> oppressions, and suppressions had 'reasons'
> >> in their own times. =A0High ranking nazis stole
> >> everything that the jews had, just as Ferdinand
> >> did in 1492 Spain.
>
> >True, the Nazi reasons for wiping out the Jews were lies, but the
> >background prejudice against them as outsiders, merchants and killers
of
> >Christ have made it much easier to scapegoat them. =A0Even in your
> >statement that many have risen to become high-level financiers is only
> >partially true. =A0Most of the richest and most influential bankers,
> >politicians, movers and shakers continue to be Protestants, not Jews,
> >not Catholics, not women and not those of diverse ethnicity. =A0Why
don't=

> >the poor disenfranchised whites rise up against the super-rich
> >Protestants who really run the country? =A0Never does happen.
>
> >Robert
>
> >=3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D
>
> The cultural respect for learning in judaism
> (and in oriental societies) makes more scientists
> and philosophers than other cultures. Sure, WASPs
> run the USA (if you can call it management). =A0But
> look at all the jewish talent in medicine, science,
> physics, philosophy, and finance.
>
> I don't by any means hold it against them.

Great Jews like Einstein have nothing in common with the rif raf you
call "them."  You are an ignorant SOB.