Re: Why was Jesus crucified?

On Tue, 13 May 2008 04:14:20 GMT, Robert Epstein <vze256xu@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:

>Keynes wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 12 May 2008 17:05:09 GMT, Robert Epstein <vze256xu@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>chazwin wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 30 Mar, 00:46, Robert Epstein <vze25...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>saint7pe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Mar 29, 2:39 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Mar 29, 2:06 pm, "<<<~A John 3:16 Whosoever~>>>"
>>>>>
>>>>>>><kaseybec...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Mar 29, 1:39 pm, David <pchristain...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"The first question that arises is: Why was Jesus crucified?
>>>>>>>>>Was it because he was a good man - sinless in fact- who
>>>>>>>>>during a very short teaching ministry said wise things that
>>>>>>>>>other Jews had also said? Or because he performed
>>>>>>>>>remarkable miracles of healing, helping many people?
>>>>>>>>>For no legal reason that is ever given, the Jews seized
>>>>>>>>>him and arranged for Pontius Pilate to crucify him.
>>>>>>>>>Pilate, administering Roman justice, threw in a couple
>>>>>>>>>of thieves and executed them also, although it would be
>>>>>>>>>contrary to the Roman system of law to give capital
>>>>>>>>>punishment for any but the most serious crimes."
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Jesus was crucified because it fulfilled prophecy concerning the
>>>>>>>>Messiah (see how simple that was?).
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Heh, read Deuteronomy 13.  The loving father god of Jesus was
>>>>>>>obviously not the same God as angry, jealous, puni****ng, racist
>>>>>>>Jehovah.  And the Pharisees knew it and they had their
instructions.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Also, Jesus poked the Pharisees in the ribs with their own
>>>>>>>hypocrisies.  That by itself guaranteed the death sentence.  But
Jesus
>>>>>>>also "defiled" the Temple, and that too is a punishable by death. 
If
>>>>>>>you read some of the Gospels, you find the Sanhedrin hired Judas
>>>>>>>within a few days of the Temple incident.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>TCross
>>>>>
>>>>>>The real question, Terry, is not why did the Jews want to crucify
>>>>>>Jesus, but why did Jesus allow them to crucify Him?  The relevant
>>>>>>passages are:
>>>>>
>>>>>>John 19
>>>>>
>>>>>>[10] Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest
>>>>>>thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to
release
>>>>>>thee?
>>>>>>[11] Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me,
>>>>>>except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me
>>>>>>unto thee hath the greater sin.
>>>>>>[12] And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews
>>>>>>cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's
>>>>>>friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
>>>>>
>>>>>>By His own testimony, Jesus was crucified by the spiritual force
that
>>>>>>came through the Jews and probably is still coming through them to
>>>>>>this day.  Was that spiritual force JHVH?  Or was it Satan?  There
are
>>>>>>many possibilities and a true analysis might be very difficult,
>>>>>>requiring more persistence to uncover than the JFK or RFK or MLK or
MX
>>>>>>assassinations.  One must be careful not to judge G-D by human
>>>>>>standards of good and evil.  G-D's purpose may be more to teach us
to
>>>>>>transcend this world than to improve this world.  Still, the issue
of
>>>>>>racism and deception to cover up the racism looms large in the
history
>>>>>>of the Jews.  Such a double standard seems very difficult if not
>>>>>>impossible to rationalize in any legitimate way.  It is the ten
>>>>>>thousand pound gorilla in the foyer that no one wants to acknowledge
>>>>>>as real.
>>>>>
>>>>>Pilate was not a Jew.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Pilate was the Roman governor of Judea. He washes his hands of the
>>>>crucifiction and gave the Jews the choice who to kill because it was
>>>>their holy festival of the passover.
>>>>The Jews killed Jesus.
>>>
>>>He washed his hands because he didn't want to deal with the
consequences 
>>>of killing a charismatic Jew under his rule.  "The Jews" did not kill 
>>>Jesus.  The ruling body of the Jews at that time handed him over to the

>>>Romans, who killed him.  The ruling body of the Pharisees DID NOT and
DO 
>>>NOT represent the Jews of the time, or their point of view on Jesus. 
>>>All of Jesus' followers at that time were Jewish as well.  Blame the 
>>>Roman and Jewish authorities who jointly carried out the execution. Not

>>>"The Jews" as if they were a monolithic body.  This globalized
prejudice 
>>>has gone on long enough, and is not accurate.
>>>
>>>It's like holding all Americans responsible for Iraq, although Bush
went 
>>>in over massive objections.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>The Jews did not crucify Jesus.
>>>>>"The Jews" as a body did not want to crucify Jesus.
>>>>>Both the Jewish elders who assented to his crucifixion after the
issue
>>>>>was thrown back to them by the Roman authorities AND Jesus' followers
>>>>>were Jewish, so there is no "The Jews" who wanted to cruficy anyone.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The Jewish authorities were instrumental in bringing Jesus to justice
>>>>for all his blasphemy and political agitation.
>>>
>>>Right, and they were one particular political body in a particular time

>>>and place.  The Romans who carried out the execution with their
barbaric 
>>>methods are equally responsible, and the Jews as a people have no blame

>>>for the murder.
>>>
>>>The Pharisees ruled with permission of the Romans.  Any Pharisee who
did 
>>>not accept the Roman ways of doing things would not have been allowed
to 
>>>serve as an elder.  Yet, the Romans get a clean bill of health, while 
>>>the Jews as an entire people get centuries of persecution.  Is that
fair?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Throughout most of history, the Jews have been persecuted within
every
>>>>>society in which they have existed.  To say that they have been
guilty
>>>>>of racism and covering up racism is an amazing distortion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>We see it here on NG every day. Jews are no different to gentiles -
>>>>there are examples of racists in every human group.
>>>
>>>
>>>Except that the Jews have been selected over the centuries for an 
>>>unusual degree of hatred and persecution.  Other than that, they are as

>>>diverse and flawed as any other group.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>You are a foolish and inaccurate anti-semite.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Now who is being racist?
>>>
>>>
>>>It is not "racist" to call someone an anti-semite.  Someone who is 
>>>against Jews and is prejudiced towards Jews is an anti-semite.  It is a

>>>simple definition which does not apply to any particular race.  That is

>>>obvious, so you are not using the term very well.
>>>
>>>"Foolish," "inaccurate" and "anti-semite" may be insulting, but they
are 
>>>not racial insults.
>>>
>>>Robert
>>>
>>>= = = = =
>> 
>> 
>> I think the jews have been persecuted for the
>> reason that their religion demands separation
>> from non-jews.  It preserves the religion by
>> non-asymilation, but it leads to distrust among
>> non-jews, and a honking big superiority complex
>> among the orthodox. (racism?  How can God's
>> own chosen people ever be wrong about anything?) 
>> 
>> Also many jews have been above average scholars 
>> and thinkers who rise to positions of influence.  
>> This leads to jealosy.  Some of them have been 
>> talented financiers, and when the economy knocks 
>> you down and keeps you down, it's easy to blame 
>> the jews.
>> 
>> I don't think the germans gave a damn about
>> Jesus or the crucifixion.  All the pograms,
>> oppressions, and suppressions had 'reasons'
>> in their own times.  High ranking nazis stole
>> everything that the jews had, just as Ferdinand
>> did in 1492 Spain.
>> 
>> 
>
>True, the Nazi reasons for wiping out the Jews were lies, but the 
>background prejudice against them as outsiders, merchants and killers of 
>Christ have made it much easier to scapegoat them.  Even in your 
>statement that many have risen to become high-level financiers is only 
>partially true.  Most of the richest and most influential bankers, 
>politicians, movers and shakers continue to be Protestants, not Jews, 
>not Catholics, not women and not those of diverse ethnicity.  Why don't 
>the poor disenfranchised whites rise up against the super-rich 
>Protestants who really run the country?  Never does happen.
>
>Robert
>
>= = = = = = = =

The cultural respect for learning in judaism 
(and in oriental societies) makes more scientists
and philosophers than other cultures. Sure, WASPs
run the USA (if you can call it management).  But
look at all the jewish talent in medicine, science,
physics, philosophy, and finance. 

I don't by any means hold it against them.