The Real Doctor wrote:
> He Who Must No Be Named wrote:
>
>> The Real Doctor wrote:
>>
>>> He Who Must No Be Named wrote:
>>>
>>>> Without God there can be no morality. Do you agree?
>>>
>>> No. I know some extremely moral atheists and some
>>> extremely immoral theists.
>>
>> Fyodor Dostoevsky agrees with me.
>
> Well good for him.
The accusation that without belief in gods there can be no
morality is an ancient slur against atheists that religionists
have kept trotting out for years. The idea that only living in
fear of a vengeful god stops us from being immoral is says in
effect that people are naturally mean and nasty to each other.
I have seen too many examples of people being nice to others
without being religious to buy that.
In particular, the Christian system of morals (do good and you
will go to Heaven, do bad and you will go to Hell) is not moral.
It is self-serving. If you only pretend to be moral so that
you may obtain future comforts or avoid puture pain, how are you
any better than a well-contidioned lab rat? Quakerism teaches
a higher morality that this.
As for the idea that one should go to the Bible for moral
guidance, here are some moral questions for those who
beleive such a thing:
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2 Kings 2:23-24
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along
the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him.
"Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!"
24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on
them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the
woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.
QUESTION: Does this strike you as an example of a moral God?
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Numbers 31:7-18
7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and
killed every man.
9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took
all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder.
10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as
well as all their camps.
11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and
animals,
12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar
the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains
of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.
13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community
went to meet them outside the camp.
14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army--the commanders
of thousands and commanders of hundreds--who returned from
the battle.
15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them.
16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the
means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what
happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people.
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept
with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept
with a man.
QUESTION: Are these orders from God moral? Would you obey
these orders? If God himself told you face to face to kill
all of those little boys, would you do it?
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Deuteronomy 25:11-12
11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes
to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches
out and seizes him by his private parts,
12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.
QUESTION: Would your morals allow you to inflict this punishment with
no pity?
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Hosea 1:1-2
1 The word of the LORD that came to Hosea son of Beeri during the
reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and
during the reign of Jeroboam son of Jehoash king of Israel:
2 When the LORD began to speak through Hosea, the LORD said to him,
"Go, take to yourself an adulterous wife and children of
unfaithfulness, because the land is guilty of the vilest adultery
in departing from the LORD."
QUESTION: If God told you to do this, would you do it? How
would you make 100% sure that your wife is be adulterous and
your children unfaithful? What would you do if they weren't?
File for divorce?
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Deuteronomy 21:18-21
18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey
his father and mother and will not listen to them when they
discipline him,
19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to
the elders at the gate of his town.
20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn
and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and
a drunkard."
21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You
must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of
it and be afraid.
QUESTION: Does this strike you as a moral way to deal with a
troublesome teen?
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