Re: Why was Jesus crucified?

Terry Cross wrote:

> On Mar 31, 1:31 pm, Robert Epstein <vze25...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> 
>>saint7pe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
>>
>>>On Mar 31, 10:42 am, Robert Epstein <vze25...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>>>>saint7pe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
>>
>>>>>Anyone who actually reads the Talmud and the writings of Maimonides,
>>>>>for instance, knows that Judaism is very strongly racist, more
>>>>>strongly than any other religion or belief system on earth.  If you
>>>>>deny that, you are either ignorant or a lying demagogue yourself.  I
>>>>>presume the latter.  Anyone who tries to reason with the Jews on this
>>>>>newsgroup, knows how demented they are and completely incapable of
>>>>>dialogue or reason.  All they do is present deadening dogma meant to
>>>>>intimidate.
>>
>>>>Okay, pj, I don't want to intimidate you, although I'm sure that would
>>>>be impossible anyway.  Let's "reason" together, as you request above.
>>>>Give me a single quote from the Talmud that is racist, and give me one
>>>>example of racism in Judaism.  I'm not asking you to review your
entire
>>>>argument, which I apparently missed.  How about just one piece of
>>>>evidence to show that you have something to back up your view.  Is
that
>>>>asking too much?
>>
>>>>Now I will freely admit that there is institutional racism in the
>>>>treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli government.  I consider
>>>>that more of a horrible political situation than anything else, which
>>>>needs to be corrected.  And there are definitely some Jews that are
>>>>racists, just as there are racists in every community.  But show me
that
>>>>Judaism itself is "strongly racist" as you assert above, and "more
>>>>strongly than any other religion or belief system on earth" as you say
>>>>above.  Just give an illustration of each of those assertions, so we
can
>>>>both be reasonable and talk about evidence instead of mere belief.
>>
>>>>Robert
>>
>>>>- - - - - - - - - -
>>
>>>All "published" Jews think there is something special about Jews vis-a-
>>>vis the "Jewish soul."   The literature commpares the souls of
>>>Gentiles to the souls of animals, by comparison to the souls of Jews.
>>>You may or may not know the doctrine of the five levels of soul:
>>>Ruah, Nefesh, Neshamah, Chayah, and Yechidah.  JHVH only exists within
>>>this "Jewish soul," and so Gentiles can not know JHVH in the way that
>>>Jews can.  Although, JHVH is unquiqely the "Jewish G-D," he governs
>>>all, and all must be obedient to JHVH, even though they cannot have
>>>same intimate relation****p to JHVH that Jews can.  The Noahide Laws
>>>enforce this unbalanced state of affairs.  The Gentiles, to avoid
>>>destruction, must acknowledge the Jewish G-D and avoid wor****pping or
>>>even achkonwledging any other God, including a God that might be
>>>unique to the particular Gentiles.  The Gentile nation must adopt a
>>>judicial system that enforces the exclusive belief in the Jewish G-D,
>>>thus destroying the separation of church and state.  Now here's the
>>>kicker:  a Public Law was passed by Congress in 1991 honoring Rebbe
>>>Schneerson on his birthday and proclaiming the Noahide Laws in
>>>principle within the United States, thus destroying American
>>>democracy, in principle.  The only thing that has saved us is the
>>>death of Rebbe Schneerson, which extinguished the possibility that he
>>>could be regarded as the Messiah.  Otherwise, we might have a Jewish
>>>theocracy today, instead of an American democracy.  This needs looking
>>>into, but I believe we came as close to that dire end as to a literal
>>>end during the Cuban Missle Crisis.  We have only the true G-D of
>>>Israel to thank for extingui****ng the Antichrist, Rebbe Scheerson,
>>>before he could rise to power.
>>
>>Well, thanks for discussing what you meant by "Jewish racism."  I would
>>not call it that, as it is not prejudice against a particular race, but
>>more of an avowal of specialness for one's own race.
> 
> 
> That's pretty weasily, Robert.  You have just excused White Racism.

Not at all; white racists do not just avow specialness, but superiority 
and disgust at other races, matched by acts of violence.  Where that 
appears in Israel's treatment of Palestinians I am equally against it. 
But just saying "we are the chosen people" while obnoxious to some, is 
not in itself racist.

> 
>> I think many races
>>feel that way, not just the Jews.
> 
> 
> Absolutely.  Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans, French, and many more.  But
> it is still racism.

No it's not.  That is not the right term for "specialness" unless it is 
matched by institutional advantage and violent suppression or non-equal 
rights for other groups.  It may still be seen as obnoxious however.

> 
> 
>>However, most Jews do not believe
>>that the Jewish people have a station above other peoples.  That, I
>>think, is as fairly small phenomenon.  No one in my family or friends
>>who are Jewish feel that way.
> 
> 
> Do NONE of them believe they belong to the "chosen people"?  If they
> do, it is racism.  If not, you live in a very unusual pocket of Jews.

Not at all.  Large ****tions of the Jewish population are "humanists" who 
believe in lifting up all people.  It is a part of the Jewish cultural 
tradition.

> 
>>However, I think among some of the
>>orthodox sects that feeling may indeed be there, although I still
>>wouldn't call it racism.  More like grandiosity or triumphalism or
>>something like that.  Racism seeks to explicitly make others inferior
>>under the law or within institutions.  Just saying "Jews are special"
>>does not do this.
> 
> 
> Would you like some examples?  Here is a selection:
> http://www.daatemet.org/articles/article.cfm?article_id=119&lang=en
> 
> We have already mentioned the words of the Ra'avad with regards to an
> animal slaughtered by a Gentile: "for the Gentiles are like
> animals...and one who thinks of them as something [worthwhile] will
> gather the wind in his fist."

Few Jews outside of the most Orthodox Orthodox would believe those 
words.  And many of the Orthodox do not feel that way either.  Yes, 
there are some groups who would agree with those words, but not many.

> ... as Chazal said: 'You are called men and the nations are not called
> men,' as though it were an ordinary thing for them, that the
> comparison between Israel and the Gentiles is similar to the
> comparison between man and animals who cannot speak.
> 
> The Maharal of Prague OBM, explains the saying of Rabbi ****mon bar
> Yochai, "You are called men" in a number of places. In the book
> Gevurot HaShem chapter 44 (page 167) he wrote: "...for even if all
> human beings have a common shape, there still is a distinction...there
> are nations who have more of a tendency towards the physical and their
> actions testify to this, for they are inclined towards lust and
> abominable things. This is evidence of their materialistic
> nature...and as we find animals, which are like an intermediary
> between man and the rest of the animal world, such as the
> monkey...likewise there exist men -- who are not completely men.
> 
> E. Rabbi Abraham Issac HaCohen Kook, first chief Rabbi of Palestine:
> In the book "Orot," Orot Yisrael chapter 5, article 10 (page 156),
> Rabbi Kook wrote: "The difference between the Jewish soul, in all its
> independence, inner desires, longings, character and standing, and the
> soul of all the Gentiles, on all of their levels, is greater and
> deeper than the difference between the soul of a man and the soul of
> an animal, for the difference in the latter case is one of quantity,
> while the difference in the first case is one of essential quality."

Those passages are indeed odious.  They are not strictly "racist" as 
they would not apply to a Gentile who converted to a Jew.  That 
converted Jew would have the same "race" but would now be among the 
exalted, true?

It is more like religious prejudice, and I agree it is wrong.  Most Jews 
would not ascribe to those statements.

> 
>>There is some real racism among some Jews, and the
>>most glaring example is the treatment of Palestinians in some aspects of
>>Israeli-Palestinian life.  Most Israelis however do not agree with this
>>mistreatment and want to correct it.
> 
> 
> Racism permeates both doctrine and practice, both historically and
> present-day.  Read the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Gentiles.
> http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=142&letter=G&search=gentile
> 
> Consider the doctrine that the greatest suffering in the war was
> inflicted on the Jews.  Consider the only people who demanded
> retributions and received from Germany (Israel).  Consider the
> Holocaust monuments and museums throughout America, all without a
> single memorial to the many millions more Americans, Ukrainians,
> Austrians, Russians, Cossacks, French, British, and others who died -
> unless they were Jewish (or maybe homo***ual or Gypsy).  The history
> is twisted to represent that only the Jewish deaths mattered.

I do think it is unique that the Jews as a religious and cultural group 
were largely wiped off the face of the earth in great pro****tion.  That 
is indeed a horrific special station in the Holocaust.  However, I am 
not unaware of the horrors inflicted on other people, and among my 
friends and family - my father served in WW II in France and Germany - 
we speak just as much about the 12 million Russians who were killed as 
the 6 million Jews and others.

However, the Cossacks can go **** themselves.  I do feel sorry for 
everyone else.

> Racism is a very big problem in Judaism.  Like a White Southerner who
> does not SEE racism among his neighbors, you do not see racism in
> yourself or your friends.  How could you?
> 
> TCross

That is bull****.  I see my prejudices and those of the people around me 
as well.  And when a Jewish person speaks prejudicially, I will call 
them on it just as quickly as I do anyone else.  And have done so on a 
number of occasions.

Robert

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