Re: Why was Jesus crucified?

Terry Cross wrote:

> On Mar 29, 4:46 pm, Robert Epstein <vze25...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> 
>>saint7pe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
>>
>>>On Mar 29, 2:39 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>>>>On Mar 29, 2:06 pm, "<<<~A John 3:16 Whosoever~>>>"
>>
>>>><kaseybec...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>>>>>On Mar 29, 1:39 pm, David <pchristain...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>"The first question that arises is: Why was Jesus crucified?
>>>>>>Was it because he was a good man - sinless in fact- who
>>>>>>during a very short teaching ministry said wise things that
>>>>>>other Jews had also said? Or because he performed
>>>>>>remarkable miracles of healing, helping many people?
>>>>>>For no legal reason that is ever given, the Jews seized
>>>>>>him and arranged for Pontius Pilate to crucify him.
>>>>>>Pilate, administering Roman justice, threw in a couple
>>>>>>of thieves and executed them also, although it would be
>>>>>>contrary to the Roman system of law to give capital
>>>>>>punishment for any but the most serious crimes."
>>
>>>>>Jesus was crucified because it fulfilled prophecy concerning the
>>>>>Messiah (see how simple that was?).
>>
>>>>Heh, read Deuteronomy 13.  The loving father god of Jesus was
>>>>obviously not the same God as angry, jealous, puni****ng, racist
>>>>Jehovah.  And the Pharisees knew it and they had their instructions.
>>
>>>>Also, Jesus poked the Pharisees in the ribs with their own
>>>>hypocrisies.  That by itself guaranteed the death sentence.  But Jesus
>>>>also "defiled" the Temple, and that too is a punishable by death.  If
>>>>you read some of the Gospels, you find the Sanhedrin hired Judas
>>>>within a few days of the Temple incident.
>>
>>>>TCross
>>
>>>The real question, Terry, is not why did the Jews want to crucify
>>>Jesus, but why did Jesus allow them to crucify Him?  The relevant
>>>passages are:
>>
>>>John 19
>>
>>>[10] Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest
>>>thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release
>>>thee?
>>>[11] Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me,
>>>except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me
>>>unto thee hath the greater sin.
>>>[12] And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews
>>>cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's
>>>friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
>>
>>>By His own testimony, Jesus was crucified by the spiritual force that
>>>came through the Jews and probably is still coming through them to
>>>this day.  Was that spiritual force JHVH?  Or was it Satan?  There are
>>>many possibilities and a true analysis might be very difficult,
>>>requiring more persistence to uncover than the JFK or RFK or MLK or MX
>>>assassinations.  One must be careful not to judge G-D by human
>>>standards of good and evil.  G-D's purpose may be more to teach us to
>>>transcend this world than to improve this world.  Still, the issue of
>>>racism and deception to cover up the racism looms large in the history
>>>of the Jews.  Such a double standard seems very difficult if not
>>>impossible to rationalize in any legitimate way.  It is the ten
>>>thousand pound gorilla in the foyer that no one wants to acknowledge
>>>as real.
>>
>>Pilate was not a Jew.
>>The Jews did not crucify Jesus.
> 
> 
> Pilate did not crucify Jesus.

"The Jews" didn't either.  Pilate forced the Jewish Authority to make 
the decision.  The Romans crucified him.  They were in charge and had 
final decision-making power.   For political reasons, they preferred not 
to have their handwriting on it.

> 
>>"The Jews" as a body did not want to crucify Jesus.
> 
> 
> The "Jews" were many bodies, as indicated by the plural form of the
> word.

That's right, which is why blaming "The Jews" as a race for the 
crucifixion of Jesus is ridiculous and unfair.  Aside from the fact that 
they were a minority power ruled by the Romans, who made the laws. 
Crucifixion is a Roman punishment, not a Jewish one.

>>Both the Jewish elders who assented to his crucifixion after the issue
>>was thrown back to them by the Roman authorities AND Jesus' followers
>>were Jewish, so there is no "The Jews" who wanted to cruficy anyone.
> 
> 
> According to the Gospels, no Romans wanted to kill Jesus, either.  Now
> you REALLY have to wonder Why Jesus was crucified?

Yeah, well, the Romans played political football with someone who was 
controversial, and the Jewish authority was confused about it as well.

>>Throughout most of history, the Jews have been persecuted within every
>>society in which they have existed.
> 
> 
> What do you say about a school child who gets into fights wherever he
> goes, in every classroom, in every school?  What do you say when ever
> teacher complains about him?  Do you imagine it is everyone else's
> fault?  When the fellow grows up, he goes from city to city and state
> to state, and everywhere he goes he gets into trouble with the police
> until he has an arrest record as long as your arm.
> 
> Should we presume that every cop, teacher, and school child has joined
> a conspiracy to persecute the boy?  Isn't that a rather too-elaborate
> conspiracy theory?
> 
> TCross

I don't see any merit to your analogy, particularly as throughout the 
European dias****a, the Jewish minorities always attempted to make a 
living and live in peace, never instigated any of the horrific violence 
that has been visited against them.  My grandfather was a tailor - when 
he was a young man his family was desperately poor and they lived in a 
Jewish ghetto in the Ukraine with no contact with non-Jewish Christians. 
  So please explain how they were to blame when the Cossacks came riding 
into their town repeatedly, raping women, shooting young men and why 
they drowned my Grandfather's cousin in a pond for fun?  It is quite 
possible for those who are prejudiced and hateful to persecute a race in 
a country where they have no power, without any good reason, just 
because they want a scapegoat for their aggression, or don't like them 
because of historical prejudice.  This was certainly the case in Nazi 
Germany, where the Jews enjoyed a cultured and peaceful existence before 
the rise of Hitler.  It also does not behoove anyone to blame the victim 
when a whole race is attempted to be wiped out by those who hate them. 
My Grandfather's family - all who stayed behind and did not come to the 
U.S. before WW II, were wiped out, murdered by the Nazis.  No, I do not 
blame the Jews for the aggression against them throughout history, much 
of it because they were nomadic, or merchants who travelled to sell 
their wares and were not accepted within the foreign countries in which 
they lived and travelled, or because they are wrongly blamed for the 
murder of Christ.

> To say that they have been guilty
> 
>>of racism and covering up racism is an amazing distortion.
>>
>>You are a foolish and inaccurate anti-semite.
>>
>>Robert

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