joseph_daniel_zuki...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
rasqual <scott.marqua...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > What are the significant marks of apostasy in Judaism?
> > Since the gospel was, in the MSOT, revealed to Adam and entrusted to
> > ancient prophets, why is there so little evidence of specifically
> > Mormon doctrine in the OT?
> You mean, like, the ten commandments and, uhm, dependence on God
> alone, and, well, repentance, and, oh, hey, listening to the Holy
> Spirit, and, erm, baptism, and ....
Are those "specifically Mormon?"
> > Why do all the beliefs here
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_principles_of_faith
>
> > seem so consistent with the OT and not with Mormonism?
>
> Lack of creed or catechism? Single, omniscient, transcendent God that
> created the universe? Study of the scripture? All-powerful God? ...
I could have phrased that much better. "All the beliefs" seem
consistent with the OT, true enough, but "not all" are consistent with
Mormonism. At least, not with variants that tend to differentiate
Mormonism from orthodox Christianity (or Judaism).
Something like that.
> Well, of course, some of "Maimonides' 13 principles of faith" are not
> compatible with the Gospel of Jesus Christ (that no body thing again,
> for one), but all in all, from my point of view, we have a lot in
> common.
That's not really my question at all. I'll explain further.
Given the loss of some of the "plain and precious" things (such as
that God is a humanoid), what episodes/instances do you identify in
the OT that seem to betoken apostasy? And I don't mean the apostasies
that the OT itself acknowledges. My point would be that when the
Israelites returned from Exile, they didn't find a book with a lot of
"plain and precious" things that had been lost during their prior
apostasy. They didn't "yahoo" about Father having a right hand. None
of the Mormon distinctives showed up. Basically, they came back
"restored" to the delusional theology they'd started with -- one
lacking the putative gospel LdS claimed they had, and so forth.
Thus, there are two kinds of apostasy in the OT. There're the
apostasies recorded during the period of the judges or the prophets
(or even in the wilderness before the conquest), in later cases
resulting in exile via the Assyrians or the Babylonians. Then there
are the restorations -- as when people cried out to God and he sent
the judges to deliver them in keeping with his covenant, as when they
returned from Babylon, and so forth.
But the second kind of apostasy is one we're obliged to believe
existed only because Mormon belief implies it. The second kind of
apostasy is the kind that perdured even while Israel was being
restored following her repentences following these other periods of
apostasy. Sometimes even the prophets seemed deludedly apostate (c.f.
Balaam and "God is not a man").
So what I'm wondering is NOT what marks of apostasy Mormonism finds
that the rest of us also find, and indeed which the OT makes it a
point to disclose quite honestly. My question is where Mormonism finds
the marks of this deeper, more fundamental apostasy -- for example,
the incor****eal character of God. LdS can't really point to
anthropomorphic speech about God as evidence for Jewish attestation
regarding his hominidness, because we could just as well demonstrate
by that approach that the Jews considered Father to be a barbecue, a
gyroscope, or a tornado.
"Apostasies even when they seem to have been restored" is the theme
here.
> You mean, the ancients had no Good News? Didn't believe that Jehovah
> would save them from their sins if they repented?
Mormons I've conversed with seem to believe that the Jews possessed
something very like the narrative of Matthew in their heads. ;-)
> faith(fulness)?
Gah!
That's a terrible conflation.
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