On May 9, 11:44=A0am, jjsarg...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> I'll keep this as short as possible.
>
> On May 4, 6:43=3DA0pm, Matthew Johnson <matthew_mem...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:=
>
> > In article <Yn8Sj.8780$r12.7335@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>, jjsarg...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
says...
> [snip]
> > >Do you actually know God?
>
> > You should be asking that question of yourself, since the 'God' you
desc=
ri=3D
> be is
> > such a monstrous perversion of the Christian God.
>
> You ignored the question as regards yourself.
> Don't answer it too glibly. =A0Be thoroughly,
> deeply honest with yourself and with God
> (if such there be); you're not required to tell me
> what you find out. =A0If you do honestly believe
> you know God, I'm not sure that what you know
> is not also a perversion of the Christian God
> (I don't observe much that comes across as
> love for your neighbor). =A0Whether this is a
> communication problem or an actual problem
> with the content of your faith I'm not sure.
>
>
>
> > People who _do_ know God say as St. John Chrysostom said as he was
dying=
i=3D
> n
> > exile: "glory to God for all things". They do not wilt under suffering
a=
nd=3D
> =A0blame
> > God for their distress.
>
> Yes, but what would *you* do in similar distress?
> Heck, you don't even say "Glory to God for
> that pain in the rear Jeff Sargent", much less
> for any more severe troubles you may have.
> (Which brings up one side point: =A0I'm capable,
> as I just demonstrated, of self-deprecating
> humor; are you? =A0I have my doubts.)
>
> As for me, my view is quite simple: =A0if God
> is sovereign, He logically -- *necessarily* --
> is responsible for all suffering. =A0He even said so,
> in Isaiah 45:7. =A0He's no friend.
>
> -- Jeffrey J. Sargent
>
> =A0 ----
>
> [I understand the reason for the question. But Usenet does not bring
> out the best in many people. I try to refrain from drawing conclusions
> about people's spiritual state from how they participate in these
> discussions, no matter how tempting that may be. --clh]
An extract from "The love of God and affliction" by Simone Weil - she
was a French Jew who died at 34 in 1943 in Britain, partly because she
refused to eat more than the rations allowed her countrymen under Nazi
rule (in actual fact her countrymen usually found a way to get around
the rules).
Suffering (affliction) caused by nature eg. "The sea is not less
beautiful in our eyes becasue we know that sometimes ****ps are
wrecked. On the contrary this adds to its beauty. If it altered the
movement of its waves to spare a boat, it would be a creature gifted
with discernment and choice and not this fluid, perfectly obedient to
every external pressure. It is this perfect obedience which
constitutes the sea's beauty."
On men ..."Men can never escape from obedience to God. A creature
cannot but obey. The only choice given to men, as intelligent and
free creatures, is to desire obedience or not to desire it. If a man
does not desire it, he obeys nevertheless, perpetually, in as much as
he is a thing subject to mechanical necessity. If he desires it, he
is still subject to mechanical necessity, but a new necessity is added
to it, a necessity constituted by laws belonging to supernatural
beings. Certain actions have become impossible to him, others are
done by his agency, sometimes almost in spite of himself."
I've said before my father appeared to me the night he died. Amongst
other things he commented "I always was doomed. I didn't really have
any choice!". Later in the proceedings he admitted "I was
willing ....".
The point there is that he was still subject to God's will, even
though he had long ago decided he didn't desire it. It caught up with
him in the end, whether he desired it or not. We may not desire to
obey gravity, and might step off a cliff to prove our point. For a
short time we may even have a sense of exhilarating weightlessness.
Then comes the reality. We're subject to it whether we desire it or
not.
Because of personal experiences like this, and a significant number of
cases of unfair treatment, including "discouragement" by my old
pastor, for which he apologised, but like my father too late as the
damage was already done, I don't have a Santa Claus view of God. I
don't even like Him sometimes. I think He's pretty unfair, at least
in this life. Perhaps He makes up for it in the next, serving His
people Himself if one of Christ's parables is correct. I should at
least hope He makes up for it in some way.
In the end however the decision to desire or not desire God's will in
our lives is a matter of our own wills. When we're in a dry gully, to
desire His will may be all we've got left.
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