On Apr 7, 7:38 pm, DKleinecke <dkleine...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > > > This is why Jesus talked more about hell than heaven....
>
> > is that enough?
>
> You didn't do any research on Jesus' references to heaven so we still
> have no evidence that Jesus talked more about hell than heaven.
You know, I was aware of this when I sent the post, but you had said
in your post from Apr 2
"Aside from the dubious hadith about Dives and Lazarus where does he
speak about either of them? Aside from mere references like th[e]
ones about drinking wine in paradise."
Fair enough that I didn't mention all the references to heaven.
I in fact, had a slightly different aim to my post than proving my
statement, since the thread seems to be more about moving away from
judgment and condemnation in modern religion.
I was aiming to show that Jesus DID teach on judgment and hell.
> The indirect "references" to hell are, of course, irrelevant. That
> they refer to Hell is mere exegesis.
>
> Let's be crude about this. In Strong's concordance there are 14 gospel
> references to "hell" and over 150 references to "heaven". That sounds
> like more talk about heaven than about hell.
>
> Most of the material about both hell and heaven is not directly
> descriptive of either (apart, of course, from Dives and Lazarus).
> Mostly it describes actions that will send you to one or another.
True.
We do learn some things indirectly about both through those statements
though
I'm including a brief summary of the heaven references below.
> Mark has one pericope (9.42-48) which involves hell (he calls it
> GEENNA) and describes it (9.48) as "where the worm does not die and
> the fire is not extinguished." Matthew (5.29-30 and 18.6-9) and Luke
> (17.1-2) have copied this from Mark. Luke has removed all the
> references to hell which he, one assumes, felt were not part of Jesus'
> authentic message.
I'm interested to know how one might justify saying that the rather
obvious references are "mere exegesis" and therefore "irrelevant", yet
make assumptions about what Luke felt were authentic and why he left a
reference out.
I'll also disclose that I am simply reading the gospels for what they
say.
I'm not making assumptions about Q, Markan priority, what the "living
Jesus" vs. "what others may deem as later additions" are supposed to
say...
I'm just reading the gospels straight up.
> Matthew, in whom one easily detects less of a spirit of loving
> kindness, hell gets more play.
> I acknowledge that Matthew clearly intended some, or all, of his
> references to "fire" to be read as hell. He was obviously an angry
> man.
Judgment and condemnation are part and parcel of the gospel message.
Neither Matthew, or Jesus, are to be considered "angry men" for
speaking of our condition. It's the only reason salvation makes sense.
As for the word heaven... [I'll restrict my exhaustive search to
Matthew] it IS used a lot more than hell, but it also has several
meanings that simply aren't applicable to the discussion:
heavens as in the sky:
Matthew 14:19, 24:29, 24:31, 25:31, 26:64
Swearing by heaven
Matthew 5:34, 23:22
adjectively- as in heavenly Father/Father in Heaven,
Matthew 5:16, 5:45, 5:48, 6:1, 6:9, 6:14, 6:26, 6:32, 7:11, 7:21,
10:32, 10:33, 11:25, 12:50, 15:13, 18:10, 18:14,
18:19, 18:35, 23:29
Idiomatic "Heaven and earth" statements
Matthew 5:18
"Until heaven and earth disappear"
The kingdom of heaven:
Matthew 3:2, 4:17, 5:3, 5:10, 5:19 [2], 5:20, 7:21, 8:11, 10:7, 11:11,
11:12, 13:11, 13:24, 13:31, 13:33, 13:44, 13:45, 13:47, 13:52, 16:19,
18:1, 18:3, 18:4, 18:23, 19:12, 19:14, 19:23, 20:1, 22:2, 23:12, 25:1
Others:
Matthew 3:16
"heaven was opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a
dove"
Matthew 3:17
"A voice from heaven said, This is my Son..."
Matthew 5:12
"Great is your reward in heaven..."
Matthew 6:10
"Your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven"
Matthew 6:20
"store up for yourselves treasures in heaven"
Matthew 16:1
"... to show them a sign from heaven..."
Matthew 16:19
"whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you
loose on earth will be loosed in heaven"
Matthew 18:18
"whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you
loose on earth will be loosed in heaven"
Matthew 19:21
"follow me and you will have treasures in heaven"
Matthew 21:25
"Johns baptism, was it from heaven?"
Matthew 21:26
"If we say 'from heaven'..."
Matthew 24:36
"Not even the angels in heaven"
Matthew 28:2
"The angel of the Lord came down from heaven"
Matthew 28:2
"all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me
Additional info from the other three gospels.
Most of the references find direct counterparts in Matthew.
Luke 15:7
"There will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents"
John 3:13
"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--
the Son of Man"
Indirect reference
John 14:2-3
"In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have
told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and
prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me
that you also may be where I am"
So there is likewise in Jesus' statements, precious little description
about heaven. Certainly the word heaven is used more often, but many
of even the kingdom of heaven statements are applicable to the kingdom
here on earth, nothing about heaven. The only statement directly is
from John 14
What we actually learn about heaven:
God lives there
Jesus was from there - John 3:13
Gods will is done there - Matthew 6:10
There are angels there - Matthew 24:36
There is rejoicing over repentance - Luke 15:7
It is a place of reward - Matthew 5:12
There are places there for humans - John 14:2-3
Not everyone goes there - Kingdom of Heaven statements- Matt. 5:20,
7:21, 10:33
Jesus never actually describes heaven, but we learn that the Father,
Jesus, Angels and some humans live there.
Not everyone goes there, it is a place of reward and heaven rejoices
over repentance from sin.
Interestingly enough, even then in the teachings on heaven, we learn
that not everyone will be there. It demands repentance from sin. This
is an indirect statement and a confirmation of judgment and
condemnation.
We see Gods love in that heaven rejoices when there is repentance and
a person finds a place in heaven, but still we can't escape the fact
that judgment awaits those that do not repent.
As for the descriptions...
Hell is described directly in
Matthew 18:9 'the fire of hell'
Matthew 25:41 'the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'
Matthew 13:41-42 'a fiery furnace where there will be weeping and
gna****ng of teeth'
Heaven is described indirectly in
John 14:2-3 'in my fathers house there are many rooms'
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