<lsenders@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:9E54D8F4-A5D5-423A-20DA-BB5C536F6318@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Mar 17, 7:34=A0am, "gary" <biblic...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> Loren, I don't know what the problem is when we interact, but I have to
>> ta=
> ke
>> a lot of extraneous characters out when replying. For example, see the
"=
> =3DA0"
>
> ???? I'm using Safari on Google and everything displays fine.
>>
>>
>> Sorry. You said: "At regeneration, all sin is forgiven for imputation
has
>> three aspects. =A01) the sin of Adam is imputed to our account (not his
>> personal sin), 2) our sin is imputed to Christ, 3) Christ's
righteousness
>> =
> is
>> imputed to our account. =A0Justification is a onetime event wherein God
>> declares us just. =A0Rom 5:1, 2.
>>
>> Now, I stand corrected. BUT although =A0these things occur at the same
>> tim=
> e,
>> there is a logical order which is im****tant. All of them are dependent
>> upo=
> n
>> faith as a condition. Further, although these things accompany
>> regeneratio=
> n,
>> regeneration is the gift of Eternal Life, and indeed separate from all
of
>> them.
>>
> Maybe we are in agreement but misunderstanding one another. Maybe
> not.
> When we look at "salvation" theologically, justification specifically,
> there is
> no chronological order. So you point as to logical order is proper to
> the
> discussion. Christ's logical order is best displayed in John's
> gospel.
g: I agree about chronological order. These things happen in the same
instant of time.
Also I agree about the logical order being best displayed in John's
Gospel.
However I do not agree at all with the verse below you cite which you
think
speaks of the logical order.
> 6:44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws
> him...
g: I agree that this verse teaches that first one must be drawn by God to
Christ. Of course God draws all to Christ. John 12:32 And I, if I be
lifted
up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
g: This is not the verse which clearly teaches the only logical order I
am
interested in:
g: The logical order of faith/receiving Christ and becoming a child of
God
(regeneration) is what is at issue here.
g: This logical order is clearly enunciated in the following verse:
John 1:12 "But as many as RECEIVED HIM, to them gave He power TO BECOME
THE
SONS OF GOD, even to them that believe on his name:"
g: Here we have the clear logical order taught. First receive HIM,
(believe
in Him) and then become a child of God. I realize that your theology
denies
that this is possible. So you have chosen to believe Calvinism and
Reformed
Theology rather than the Bible.
> The use of "unless" expresses the limiting factor.
> "No man" expresses a universal negative.
> "can" also expresses a limiting factor as to ability or capacity.
g: I agree. Where we probably differ is that God says that He draws ALL
to
Christ.
> Now as I believe I have written of before, Jn 3:3, 5-7, 6:44 then caps
> the argument. John the Baptist rings in on this in 3:27 as well. In
> that
> a proposed doctrine must first be subject to all other "sound
> teaching"
> of scripture, the multiple Pauline declarations also come into the
> discussion. These to, I believe, had been noted.
g: Since you don't bother to make any argument here I won't either. Don't
assume I agree at all with what you think the above verses teach.
> The theo-logical order that these references teach is this:
>
> 1. God must first move to regenerate the blind man so that he
> can then see.
g: No that is not the case. In fact, this very passage proves Calvinism
and Reformed Theology to be false. The man was first healed of blindness.
He
remained Unregenerate! He was not regenerated until the believed in Jesus
for Eternal Life.
g: Let's look at it in detail:
g: Christ has already healed the blind man. This supposedly means that he
has saved the man, that the man has been regenerated under Calvinistic and
Reformed Theology. But this is just plain false.
John 9:35 ¶ Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found
him, He said to him, "DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE SON OF GOD?" 36 HE ANSWERED
AND
SAID, "WHO IS HE, LORD, THAT I MAY BELIEVE IN HIM?" 37 And Jesus said to
him, "You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you." 38
THEN
HE SAID, "LORD, I BELIEVE!" And he wor****ped Him.
g: If you, Loren, would allow God to inform your theology instead of a
murderer, you would see the truth.
g: Christ asks the blind man whom He had healed of physical blindness
(but
had not been regenerated), "Do you believe in the Son of God?" The man HAD
NOT YET BELIEVED IN THE SON OF GOD. For he asks, WHO IS HE (The Son of
God)
that I may believe in Him. He had NOT YET believed in Christ and hence he
was still unregenerate! Then Jesus tells the man that He is the Son of
God.
And again, contrary to Calvinism and Reformed Theology the man answers:
"Lord I believe!" The man KNEW that he believed. There is no question as
to
what believing in Jesus meant. The man KNEW that he believed in Him. That
instant the man was regenerated and received Eternal Life. All of this
contradicts Calvinism and Reformed Theology. This is so obvious that I am
surprised that all Calvinists don't believe it. But I do understand why.
You
have swallowed a big lie (TULIP) and put up mental blocks which prevent
you
from believing the truth.
> 2. The Spirit then enlightens the regenerate.
This is plainly false. The very passage you suggest shows it to be false,
about the healing of the blind man. The Spirit then enlightens the
UNregenerate.
The Spirit enlightens the Unregenerate! Not the regenerate. Not only the
logical but the time order given in the case of the healed blind man
contradict your theology entirely.
> a. This enlightenment includes that man is a sinner with the
> recognition of true moral guilt before God.
g: It is true that the spirit enlightens man, but He enlightens ALL men.
He
says so Himself!
John 16:8 "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of
righteousness, and of judgment:
g: As you should see, this is just plain false to suggest that the blind
man was regenerated before he believed in Jesus. The text clearly states
that what you suggest if false. Why do you twist and turn Scripture to try
to make it fit your theology? Instead you should let the Scripture inform
your theology.
> b. It includes as well that Jesus is God and the Messiah who
> by His vicarious atonement, has taken man's sin upon Himself
> and suffered the wrath of God's offended holiness.
>
> c. That Christ's righteousness is imputed to our account such
> that when God looks now at man, he sees Christ. Man thus
> is view a positionally "in Christ" though his practice will not
> always evidence Christ's righteousness living in us.
>
> d. As one is "smitten" apart from volition in physical love, so
> after regeneration a man is "smitten" with the beauty of God
> and as a natural effect, having now been invested with a new
> capacity, employs the faith that has been given to him by the
> Spirit's baptism. This is the baptism that saves.
>
> e. God declares man righteous.
>
> Now as to these subpoints, I will not argue if you see them
> differently arranged. Nor will I take issue at the point that little
> of this is consciously understood by the regenerate at the time
> of belief. I suppose I would also add one more subpoint:
g: What I take issue with is your entire soteriology. You put the cart
before the horse.
Faith PRECEDES regeneration as Scripture states again and again. You
rambling on and on about regeneration preceding faith is utter nonsense.
It
is the big lie of Calvinism.
g: Scripture states again and again "believe and be saved." NOT "be saved
and then believe."
> f. Man receives Christ as his Lord.
g: No, man receives Christ AS HIS SAVIOR! You teach a double error:
Lord****p Salvation and Calvinism.
>
> Here is the decade old MacArthur argument concerning "Lord****p
> salvation." I think it was all much ado about nothing but definition.
> Lord****p salvation is nothing more and nothing less than what
> James states when he say, "Faith without works is dead."
g: No it is not at all what James says. James is speaking to saved people.
If you want to find out how to get saved read the Gospel of John. I doubt
that it will do you any good, since you believe so many false doctrines.
There
> is a humbling that occurs naturally in true regeneration. That
> humbling must at some level be in concert that he is now the
> Lord's servant/slave. Water baptism is im****tant in that it is a
> public declaration of dying to the old ways of the world because
> having been raised with Christ, he now lives for Christ. i.e. that
> he declares that Christ is Lord over his life.
g: You have sanctification confused with salvation. All the verses you
use
about faithful obedience and Christ's Lord****p have NOTHING to do with
salvation at all.
g: The ONLY way one can be saved is by Faith Alone In Christ Alone. And
faith is simply BELIEVING what He says (in any of the promises of God
which
proffer Eternal Life.) If you have always believed as MacArthur teaches,
andyou teach above, then you are NOT saved.
snip
Gary
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