Re: For Arminians and Calvinists.....

Matthew Johnson <matthew_member@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

> In article <846D106E-05C2-84B5-4452-E0BE543BCA75@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>, Bob
> Felts says...
> 
> >semi <seminole10003@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> 
> >> On Feb 29, 9:33 am, Bart Goddard <goddar...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote: >
semi
> >><seminole10...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in >
> >>news:BF4B3A94-8C88-F9F9-8142-DA380105B391@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >> > My answer is "Jesus...", yours is "I...".  That's why your doctrine
> >> > is, at its foundation, salvation by works. You're teaching that you
> >> > saved yourself.
> 
> >> The reason the son says "I" was because of the nature of the
question.
> >> He was basically asked, "Why did you get blessed and the other person
> >> did not?"
> 
> >And the right answer is "Because God...", not "Because I...".
> 
> Wrong. You are again resorting to the same "false dilemma" you keep
> returning to in every thrad on free-will.

Since it's a false dilemma, why don't you plainly say what another
choice is?

> Not to mention, the sentence starting "Because I..." could have been
> completed as "Because I was chosen by God", which _would_ be consistent
> with your theology.
> 

In terms of strict logical equivalence, sure.  But the whole point is to
adopt the viewpoint that in salvation, as in everything else, God comes
first.  "I was chosen by God" doesn't have the same force as "God chose
me".

> So you are making a big deal about a distinction without a difference,
> one that does not even sup****t your theology in the first place. Do
> you _enjoy_ such counterproductive activity?
> 

I am making a big deal about the preeminence of God in everything,
including salvation.  I'm sorry you think that counterproductive.

> >> He was not asked, "Why did you get blessed?" To such a question he
> >> should answer "My father saved me." But what do you expect him to say
> >> when his brother is involved in the question? Do you expect him to
say,
> >> "My father saved me, but he did not save my brother" ?
> 
> >Since that's exactly what Scripture says, why, yes.
> 
> The problem is, of course, that no, that is NOT "exactly what Scripture
> says". That is exactly what your theologically biased _interpretation_
of
> Scripture says.
> 

Yes, Matthew.  I know that you disagree with me.  I wish I knew what you
would substitute in it's place.

> >That's exactly what he should say.
> 
> Nope.
> 

What were you saying about being counterproductive?  If I had wanted
room 12A I would have gone to that newsgroup.

> >> That will be ridiculous because such an answer will put the primary
> >> blame on the father, when he gave him many oppurtunities to be
> >> blessed. Would you blame God for the unsaved? I'm sure you would
> >> not.
> 
> >Of course not.  One doesn't blame God for His Sovereign choices.
> 
> Sure, people do! 

I was referring to people who have a lick of sense about them.

> Why, people even do it while denying that they are
> doing it! That is _why_ Pro 19:3 warns us against doing this.
> 
> What is more, if _your_ theology is right, then you have no good
> reason at all to tell people not to do this. If they are predestined
> to salvation, they will eventually repent of it. And if not, then
> there is nothing you can do to save them, so you may as well let them
> get that fleeting joy that comes from expressing the forbidden
> dissatisfaction with Providence.
> 

What was that about a false dilemma? 

Of _course_ there is nothing I can do to save them.  But that doesn't
lead to inaction.  If Christ lives in us, to will and to do according to
His good pleasure, then it is His work through us that results in
salvation.

> >"But before they had done good or bad..."
> 
> But this does not sup****t you either. All it sup****ts is that their
> fates were already determined; it does not tell us _why_ they were
> determined. 

Of course it does, you just don't like what it says.  What does "NOT BY
WORKS, but by His call..." mean?

> But out of theological bias, you keep on seeing what is
> not there in the text.

But out of theological bias, you keep on missing what is plainly there
in the text.


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