Re: For Arminians and Calvinists.....

semi <seminole10003@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
news:F9B6F742-2247-194B-5789-1F20C87D6256@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

> "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones
> those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children
> together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not
> willing! " (Luke 13:34)
> 
> Does such a verse imply that to exercise ones will to bring yourself
> to Christ is a self-righteous act? I don't believe so.

There are lots of other verses in the Bible.  Your "logic" here
is pretty bad.  1.  "Since this one verse doesn't seem to me
to say such-and-such, then such-and-such must not be true."
2.  It's one thing to say that man can exercise volition to
damn himself (which this verse _might_ imply) but quite another
to say that man can exercise volition to save himself (which is
the question you raised.)  So here you're changing the question.


> That's like
> saying if I eat food, I am being selfish because I am trying to
> satisfy the hunger pains I feel. But selfishness involves more than
> just taking care of oneself. Therefore, self-righteousness has to
> entail more than exercising your will to obey God.

The key word is "obey".  You're saving yourself by your _obedience_.
Lots of people believe that one _can_ save oneself by being good,
but most Christians don't, and St. Paul certainly didn't.


> But God did not force
> me to come to him.

Note how you're boasting here.  This is exactly what St. Paul
says we can't do.  If you choose correctly and another chooses
incorrectly, then you get to be proud of the fact that you
submitted your will and chose the winning team, etc.  THAT'S
why we call it "salvation by works".


> Therefore, my conclusion still remains: In the context of this
> discussion, I do not think Arminians are taking away glory from God in
> any way.

Of course they are.  God is our Father, and yet they paint Him
as the poorest sort of father.  If my kids were in serious trouble,
I'd just save them.  I wouldn't wait to see if they submitted their
will to me, or chose to love me, or anything else.  I'd just save
them.  But the Arminians Father sits on the ****ch watching his
kids drown and just shrugs and says "Well, it was their choice
to play in the deep end."

B.

-- 
Cheerfully resisting change since 1959.



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