Re: Baptism for the forgiveness of sins

On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:36:57 -0500 (CDT), Bart Goddard
<goddardbe@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

>checker@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote in
>news:542EF41A-5605-E3CB-5B20-A50E30B2E656@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
>
> 
>> One would think that if salvation REQUIRED both, then He would have
>> said something about those who were saved but were not baptized.  But
>> He didn't.
>
>Which is what makes us conclude:
>
>
>>>Evidently, there is no such thing as a person who believes and
>>>isn't baptized.
>
>> But I have to assure you that both my wife and I DID believe and WERE
>> NOT baptized for about 7 years!  
>
>So let's see:  You and wife believe and were baptized, and you offer
>THIS as a counterexample to my assertion?  You'll have to try
>harder.
>
Try again.  I offered the FACT that we were Christians (believed)
BEFORE we were baptized; we were not condemned.
>
>>>> We are saved by FAITH; 
>>>
>>>No we're not.  We're saved by grace.  I'd cite the verse, but
>>>you already did:
>
>
>>>> Eph 2:8-9
>>>> 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,
>
>
>> 50 Then He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."
>> NKJV
>
>So you read Scripture in such a way as to make it contradict
>itself?  When I go to Dallas I can say "I got to Dallas by
>I-35" or "I got to Dallas by driving" or "I got to Dallas by
>car."  You're confusing the vehicle with the cargo.  You're
>saying "my mouth saved me from starvation", when it was really
>the food.  If you understand "faith" any other way, you make
>faith into a work.

Let's see now.  YOU said we were not saved by faith; I showed where
this woman WAS saved by faith.

I read the scripture as it was written.  YOU make a bunch of
ASSUMPTIONS about what I said.

No faith is NOT a work.
>
>> He is GRACIOUS to allow that, but the FAITH is what saves us because
>> He did.
>
>Then why did Paul say "By grace."  You think, evidently, that
>"faith" is a substance that one can "have".  Perhaps it comes
>in "amounts".  Walt Disney would be proud of you, but he's
>no theologian.  Faith is trust, and what matters is not
>how much trust you have, but rather what you have trust in.
>
>Your view puts your own heart above God's actions.

Balogna.  BECAUSE GOD IS GRACIOUS and gives us faith, our faith saves
us.  Faith IS something we "have;" we RECEIVE it as a gift from God.

>>>This is a classic false argument.  We don't know whether
>>>the Thief was baptized, but sure seems likely that he would
>>>have been.  How did he have faith, if he didn't hear, and
>>>if he heard, why wouldn't he have been baptized.  Perhaps
>>>he was converted while in prison awaiting crucifixion.
>> 
>> You have nothing but supposition to sup****t you.  NOTHING in the
>> passage indicates they had any contact before the crucifiction, and
>> NOTHING in the text indicates any hearing before the crucifiction.
>> They had some time together on the crosses, obviously.
>> 
>> But beyond that, you have NOTHING but supposition, so the argument is
>> valid.
>
>You have it backwards.  You're the one who made the argument
>and you're the one who has nothing.  There's nothing in the
>passage to indicate that the thief was not baptized, so how
>can you hold this up as an example?  
>
There is nothing in the passage to indicate the thief was not an
elephant either.  You are arguing from absense, a logical fallacy.

The FACT is that BEFORE Jesus was resurrected, NOBODY was baptized
into the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. . .NOT EVEN
THE THIEF.
>
>> Salvation comes by faith, because of the Grace of God, not by "doing
>> stuff" (works) such as getting baptized, going to church, taking a
>> member****p class, etc.
>
>So many misconceptions here:  You're version of "faith" IS a work.

Only in your perverted mind.  To me and the rest of us Christians, it
is not.

>Second, as I said, it's not "getting baptized" (your works-righteousness
>based view of it) but "being baptized."  Baptism is the work of
>the church, and since it grants faith, it saves.
>
>Bart

If you go down into the water of baptism NOT believing, with NO faith,
then you come up out of the water STILL NOT believing and STILL with
no faith.

Being baptized by a church, by a farmer, by a horse that stops
suddenly in the middle of a stream, DOES NOT GIVE YOU FAITH IN
ANYTHING OR ANYONE.

You show your own logical fallacy in your claim.

Baptism is done by individual Christians (Matthew 28:18-20), not by an
organization.

Of course, as a Christian, I AM a member of Christ's church.

in the Name of Jesus,
Checker


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