Hi Suzanne, I did not mean to say there is no recognition. I believe there
is.
I believe however, with the rationale and conceptuality I have adopted
based
upon and sup****ted with Baha'i teachings, that our souls are not bound by
time or space. So our conceptions of soul in this world read into the
idea
of individuality our conceptions of time and space which are not existent
in
many spiritual worlds, and we are therefore wrong to some extent. Even if
our conceptions are correct, the language used to convey those conceptions
is limited, inaccurate, and incomplete.
In those worlds, our existence is constant and eternal and cannot, at the
same time, be individual and distinct according to our conceptions of
individuality and distinction of this world. We can, however, retain
recognition but not coming and going, place and duration.
> ...there must be some other way that we don't know or understand in this
> 3-D world of ours.<
Precisely. We both interpret the same doctrines, and that is as it should
be We are encouraged to do so by other doctrines. Your conception of a
timelessness appears to be different from mine.
> But the people who have had near-death experiences say that their
> experience is more real than anything they
> expreience in normal life.
I attended weekly meetings of such a group at a metropolitan teaching
hospital near here for over a year. The meetings I attended were hosted
by
an author of several books about the group and her NDE. Although none of
her books said so, many of the unshakable memories these people had were
not
logical, not possible, but that is not to say it was not their real
experience. Most were certainly not religious people before or after the
NDE, many felt betrayed by God to have been shown these things that they
did
not want to know. The only certainty is that these people had strong
experience, often brought to the meetings in wheelchairs fresh from the
experience.
On the other hand many more who have been near death had no such
experience.
There is nothing science can learn from their experiences, being entirely
anecdotal. In fact, in most cases science could debunk the specifics of
the
memories, the experiences, but that is not news, not useful, because there
most definitely is stong experience.
You: "He (God) would abandon those who don't have anybody here."
Maybe that is what you heard me say, but that isn't what I said or what I
meant. Our progress in the next world is dependent upon what we did here
in
this world, and after our deaths here, our influence and progress in the
next world, as we conceptualize that progress from this world, is
dependent
upon the actions of people who are still in this world.
This makes perfect sense to me because our souls are eternal, timeless,
and
as such are still based upon our actions and influence during our lives
limited by space and time. After we leave this life our only influence
remaining in this world, the only way we can be recognized in this world,
is
through those we have influenced who are still here. Their influence and
actions can change our timeless souls. A good example is a fund or school
in honor of a person. That is a tangible influence that person's soul has
on others after they have gone on. Our individuality is in this world
alone. Our distinction from others, our identitites, our souls, our
essences are based on our existence in this world.
We cannot say what a soul's experience is in the next world. Such is
personal. You say we don't remember our dreams sometimes, and I counter
that people don't remember their NDEs sometimes. What we do remember is
our
experience in this world. Strong-willed people with the intention to
better
the worlds around them have influence, and God knows what that influence
is.
The fewer regrets we have the happier our lives, our dreams, our souls. I
have told you that I know the experience of other worlds, and find them
mystical but not at all helpful to me. I can only try to ****ne the light
of
God wherever I am.
What is helpful is what helps those around me. Otherwise it is just
escape,
and that is the sure route to eternal couch-sitting.
Please let me know if you think I have avoided any of your points. And
thanks for reading.
--Kent
"Suzanne" <sb.gerstner@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:ad-dnZRq6rkEN4DVnZ2dnUVZ_uadnZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Kent,
You wrote:
> What is it you think I need to sup****t? \
The idea that individuality is lost when one dies. I have cited a
quote which shows, to me, that our individuality is not lost and
explained what in the quotes leads me to believe this.
Kent:
> You ask me to sup****t what I believe with the Writings. But how could
> anyone dispute such logic? If we are not identifiable we are not
> individual.
But we are identifiable. It said in the quote I cited that souls
would recognize one another. It isn't physical, but there must be
some other way that we don't know or understand in this 3-D world of
ours.
> If no one alive can identify us we are not individual, no
> matter how we feel.
Are the people in the next world not alive?
> Individuality is lost when the soul is not identifiable. Are you
saying
> that you think our souls are uniquely identifiable like DNA for all
> eternity?
Yes. Everything I've read in the Writings, along with what I've read
about near-death experiences, leads me to believe this. But a question
arises What are you calling individuality? We will not be separate
as most people consider themselves to be in this world. We will be
absolutely united and harmonized with God and other souls. But this
is also supposed to be how we are in this world, like "one soul in
many bodies." I like what 'Abdu'l-Baha says here:
"Let all be set free from the multiple identities that were born of
passion and desire, and in the oneness of their love for God find a
new way of life."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 76)
That is the physical realm. In a non-physical world we recognize
> and are recognized sure, but there are no words, no registry of names,
no
> fingerprints,
No. It's a different world with completely different ways of being
than here, but that doesn't make them any less effective or real.
We are often not
> sure about the identity of others in our dreams.
And a lot of times we can't remember our dreams. But the people who
have had near-death experiences say that their experience is more real
than anything they expreience in normal life. They never forget their
experience and usually it transforms their lives. They become aware
that the most im****tant thing in this life is showing love for others
and they tend to reorganize their lives to reflect this reality.
Suzanne:
> > I'm not sure what you see as being dangerous.
Kent:
>
> The notion that God or His Creation must show certain qualities for you
to
> believe in Him.
I didn't say that God had to show certain qualities for me to believe
in Him. I know that God has certain qualities from the Writings, and
therefore it doesn't make sense to me that He would create a scenario
like the one you imagine: that souls are dependent on other people in
this world for their progress, and that He would abandon those who
don't have anybody here.
Kent:
..... if we make any difference at all we join,
> we give allegiance and sacrifice everything for what is greater than
> ourselves, than our individuality.
Okay. If this is what you're meaning by individuality, then I agree
with you. One passage in the Writings tells us to "be united as the
rays of one Sun." When one ray of light meets other rays of light,
they all become part of the same light.
Whether we intend to make the sacrifice
> or not, we eventually do. And the word "eventually" is only from this
> perspective, not from the timeless next world. Our sacrifice is inevita
ble,
> the only question is how much we have to give.
Right. The ego will certainly be lost.
Suzanne:
>
> > The spiritual qualities we develop in this life
> > can only be shown when they are put into practice in our lives.
Kent:
>
> I am glad to hear you say that. I thought you said the opposite when yo
u
> said: "As we develop more and more spiritual qualities it's like we have
> more..."
I don't see that as being opposed to our needing to put good qualities
into action, but it's all according to capacity. For instance, a soul
who is born handicapped can't always do anything outwardly, but they
can have amazing soul qualities. Or a soul who was abused as a child
may have limited capcity to act positively in this life, but God can
intercede with them so that they have an amazingly wonderful
afterlife:
"As to the subject of babes and infants and weak ones who are
afflicted by the hands of oppressors: This contains great wisdom and
this subject is of paramount im****tance. In brief, for those souls
there is a recompense in another world and many details are connected
with this matter. For those souls that suffering is the greatest mercy
of God. Verily that mercy of the Lord is far better and preferable to
all the comfort of this world and the growth and development of this
place of mortality. If it be the will of God, when thou shalt be
present this will be explained in detail by word of mouth."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 372)
Kent, I don't think we are actually all that far apart in what we're
saying. It's just language that gets in the way and the way we're
interpreting what the other means.
Best wishes,
Suzanne
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