Hi Suzanne,
My view about all these esoteric issues, soul, spirit, spirituality and
metaphysics is that it is all too weird. The reason I am a Baha'i is
because I can understand the Writings explananation without the weird
stuff.
I know what a soul is: it is a person's essence. It is not some
theoretical, esoteric, metaphysical thing that I can only read about. It
is
the person's true (albeit to me somewhat theoretical) essence. I need no
further explanation or understanding of metaphysics, Aristotle or
Augustine
to understand what it is. The question becomes, what is the person's
essence? Obviously it has little to do with facial features or skin
color.
In my opinion character has a lot to do with it, but of course that is
conjecture based on what I believe is im****tant in the universe, im****tant
to me, im****tant to the rest of humanity.
I do not pretend to know God's perspective on the issues, though I know
pretty well what is in the Writings which allows me to be a Baha'i and
keep
my understanding.
> I have heard that theory as well, but I believe it's based on one
> quote from 'Abdu'l-Baha without really considering the other quote(s)
> that may modify it.
Although I don't know which quote you are talking about, I can assure you
that I received my understanding of these issues reading the Writings, but
I
do not base my understanding on any quote from the Writings. I can
sup****t
my understanding with quotes, however.
> I can't see how you can see it any other way, since it
> definitely does say that people progress through their own initiative
> -- through their supplications and entreaties to God.
Oh that quote. Yes, I understand now what you mean, which is why I
responded: "But in any case, whatever is done from beyond cannot be
identified individually..." So sure, I agree that there is progress
beyond,
but it is not individually attributable, not a part of an individual's
essence or "soul" to which we can attribute such progress. As I said, I
can
only speak from a human perspective, and I believe the individuality of a
soul is lost when that soul is not identifiable, and it can only be
individually identifiable by what that soul accomplished while abiding in
the contingent realm.
> That sounds to me like eternal hell for those who don't have any loved
> ones in this world.
That sounds to me like being lost, not being individual anymore. Sounds
to
me like the truth. If we do not align ourselves with something better
than
we are as individuals, join the Cause, we are lost in a very, very large
and
wild realm. The worlds of God are numberless, and I have experienced many
of them. There is only one clear and bright path, and regardless who we
are, we will one day lose our individuality and be forgotten on earth.
> That doesn't seem like the sort of scenario a
> loving, compassionate, ever-forgiving God would create.
So why is there misery?
> I'm reminded
> of 'Abdu'l-Baha's explanation about why the literal story of Adam and
> Eve is impossible.
If memory serves, 'Abdu'l-Baha acceded that several interpretations of
that
story are true.
> It isn't something that
> I could imagine from the God of Love that I know.
That seems to me a dangerous line of thought, since so much in these
worlds
is unjust, cruel and miserable. My perspective is that in the end we can
be
grateful, and that is where I focus. If I were to judge the world by how
humanity is treated and not by the personal glory I have experienced I am
afraid I might not judge this world to be a good place, and by
implication,
God would not be such a good Thing.
> As we
> develop more and more spiritual qualities it's like we have more and
> more facets which can reflect various colors of the light of God.
I think we differ on what it means to "reflect ... the light of God". I
think doing so requires specific, sustained and personally sacrificial
deeds.
Thanks for reading, and work on the dissertation. --Kent
"Suzanne" <sb.gerstner@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:nfednZdlyL3i2oHVnZ2dnUVZ_t6onZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Kent wrote:
>
>> Hi Suzanne, hope this means your dissertation is finished.
>
> I'm getting there.
>>
>> "At that point a soul may very well repent and turn to God, even if
they
>> opposed the Manifestation of God in this life."
>>
>> My conception of the soul is the essence of a person, and I don't
believe
>> it
>> can change, in the eyes of the living, after the person has passed on
>> except
>> by the intercession of people who have not passed on.
>
> I have heard that theory as well, but I believe it's based on one
> quote from 'Abdu'l-Baha without really considering the other quote(s)
> that may modify it. The quote that I cited definitely does this, in
> my opinion. I can't see how you can see it any other way, since it
> definitely does say that people progress through their own initiative
> -- through their supplications and entreaties to God.
>>
>> It seems to me, just thinking rationally, that the essence of a
person's
>> life, the person's physical existence is fixed at the time of the
>> person's
>> death. After that point, the only way that person's essence can be
>> changed
>> or recognized differently from what they were while alive, is by the
>> actions
>> of those who still have a physical existence.
>
> That sounds to me like eternal hell for those who don't have any loved
> ones in this world. That doesn't seem like the sort of scenario a
> loving, compassionate, ever-forgiving God would create. I'm reminded
> of 'Abdu'l-Baha's explanation about why the literal story of Adam and
> Eve is impossible. He said:
>
> "If we take this story in its apparent meaning, according to the
> interpretation of the m*****, it is indeed extraordinary. The
> intelligence cannot accept it, affirm it, or imagine it; for such
> arrangements, such details, such speeches and reproaches are far from
> being those of an intelligent man, how much less of the Divinity -
> that Divinity Who has organized this infinite universe in the most
> perfect form, and its innumerable inhabitants with absolute system,
> strength and perfection."
> (`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 123)
>
> Well, I find that to be the case for the idea that whatever we do in
> this life is the end of it, and no change can take place in the next
> world in our condition except by having people in this world pray for
> us and give charitable donations in our name. It isn't something that
> I could imagine from the God of Love that I know.
>
>
>> I think volition is a big part of a person's soul, nearly all of it.
>
> I think it's an activity or attribute of the soul. It isn't the soul
> itself.
>
> What
>> we do is what we are, and what we do is what we want to do.
>
> I think there's a lot more to it than doing alone. Baha'u'llah likens
> the soul to a "heavenly gem." I tend to think of a diamond. As we
>
> Best wishes.
>
> Suzanne
>
>
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