Yaako Warrior from AUZ, Germany, RSA, USA, Sweden, Hong Kong, Canada,
Russia, China, Denmark, UK, .........., the slayer of fecal stained
moslems. wrote:
> Yaako Warrior from AUZ, Germany, RSA, USA, Sweden, Hong Kong, Canada,
> Russia, China, Denmark, UK, .........., the slayer of fecal stained
> moslems. wrote:
>> Yaako Warrior from AUZ, Germany, RSA, USA, Sweden, Hong Kong, Canada,
>> Russia, China, Denmark, UK, .........., the slayer of fecal stained
>> moslems. wrote:
>>> Yaako Warrior from AUZ, China, RSA, USA, Sweden, Hong Kong, Canada,
>>> Russia, China, Denmark, UK, .........., the slayer of ****skin
>>> moslems. wrote:
>>>> Islam is ****! wrote:
>>>>> Qur'an Contradiction:
>>>>>
>>>>> Six or eight days of creation?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly say that God created "the
>>>>> heavens
>>>>> and the earth" in six days. But then there is also the following
>>>>> passage:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2 Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in TWO Days
>>>>> And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the
>>>>> Worlds.
>>>>> +
>>>>> He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it,
>>>>> and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measured therein all
>>>>> things
>>>>> 4 to give them nourishment in due pro****tion, in FOUR Days
>>>>> in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
>>>>>
>>>>> Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky,
>>>>> and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth:
>>>>> "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly."
>>>>> They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
>>>>> +
>>>>> 2 So He completed them as seven firmaments in TWO Days,
>>>>> and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command.
>>>>> And We adorned the lower heaven with lights,
>>>>> and (provided it) with guard.
>>>>> Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of
>>>>> Knowledge.
>>>>> -- Sura 41:9-12 (Yusuf
>>>>> Ali)
>>>>>
>>>>> = 8 altogether these are EIGHT Days.
>>>>> Two days for the creation of the earth, then four days to fill the
>>>>> earth
>>>>> with mountains, blessings and nourishment for all its inhabitants,
>>>>> and in
>>>>> the end two more days to create the seven heavens and create the
>>>>> stars in
>>>>> them. This adds up to 2+4+2 = 8 days in contradiction to the 6 days
>>>>> mentioned in the other verses.
>>>>>
>>>>> The structure is very clear: These are the three "layers" which are
>>>>> created
>>>>> bottom up:
>>>>>
>>>>> *** FIRMAMENTS [the sky, the "roof" over the earth] in 2 days
>>>>> ----------
>>>>> :-) BLESSINGS [filling the earth with everything needed for
>>>>> life] in 4
>>>>> days
>>>>> ---------
>>>>> === The EARTH [the foundation] completed in 2 days
>>>>>
>>>>> Yusuf Ali starts out his commentary with "This is a difficult
>>>>> passage..."
>>>>> before he tries to explain away the problem. But it just doesn't
>>>>> look like
>>>>> the first two days are part of the four day period since the second
>>>>> period
>>>>> presupposes the existence of the earth which is now to be filled
>>>>> after it
>>>>> had been created.
>>>>>
>>>>> Had the first period been four and the second two days, the second
>>>>> could be
>>>>> included in the first, since "filling the earth" is part of
>>>>> "creating the
>>>>> earth", but the other way around doesn't make sense. The earth that
>>>>> isn't
>>>>> existing yet cannot be filled. But mathematically it is just not
>>>>> possible to
>>>>> include four days in two days. And it is very clear from the text
>>>>> that the
>>>>> first two days are connected with "creating" the next four days are
>>>>> characterized by "putting ON it", "bestowing on it", "giving them".
>>>>>
>>>>> That verse 9 and 10 describe different stages is further sup****ted
>>>>> by the
>>>>> text structure since the two phases are "separated" by the second
>>>>> line of
>>>>> verse 9 asking a rhetorical question to the listener/reader based
>>>>> on what
>>>>> has been done in this first stage. Before it goes on to look at the
>>>>> second
>>>>> stage of creation.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is how the structure of the text presents itself (to the
>>>>> reader without
>>>>> an agenda to fit it into six days).
>>>>>
>>>>> The full explanation from Yusuf Ali's footnote 4470 is:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The Commentators understand the "four Days" in verse 10 to
>>>>> include the two
>>>>> Days in verse 9, so that the total for the universe comes to six
>>>>> Days. This
>>>>> is reasonable, because the processes described in verses 9 and 10
form
>>>>> really one series. In one case it is the creation of the formless
>>>>> matter of
>>>>> the earth; in the other case it is the gradual evolution of the
>>>>> form of the
>>>>> earth, its mountains and seas, and its animal and vegetable life,
>>>>> with the
>>>>> "nourishment in due pro****tion", proper to each.
>>>>> As explained, I don't think this explanation is acceptable. But I
>>>>> would
>>>>> welcome a clearer presentation based on the text by anybody who can
>>>>> give
>>>>> one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yusuf Ali re****ts this as THE opinion of the commentators. For the
>>>>> major
>>>>> commentators there does not even seem to exist the possibility of
this
>>>>> second attempt below given by some Muslims to reconcile the number
>>>>> of days
>>>>> from eight to six:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here, the commentators generally have been confronted with this
>>>>> question:
>>>>> If it is admitted that the creation of the earth took two days and
the
>>>>> setting up of the mountains and placing of the provisions and
>>>>> blessings in
>>>>> it took four days, and the creation of the heavens, took another
>>>>> two days,
>>>>> the total number of the days would be eight, whereas at several
>>>>> places in
>>>>> the Quran Allah has said that the creation of the earth and heavens
>>>>> took six
>>>>> days in all. (For example, see 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59). This
>>>>> question
>>>>> can easily be answered as follows:
>>>>> The two days of the creation of earth are not separable from the
>>>>> two days
>>>>> in which this universe as a whole was created. If we consider the
>>>>> following
>>>>> verses, we see that in them the creation of both the earth and the
>>>>> heavens
>>>>> has been mentioned together, and then it has been stated that Allah
>>>>> made the
>>>>> seven heavens in two days. These seven heavens imply the whole
>>>>> universe, one
>>>>> part of which is also our earth. Then, when like the other
>>>>> countless stars
>>>>> and planets of the universe this earth also took the shape of a
>>>>> unique globe
>>>>> within two days, Allah began to prepare it for animate creatures,
>>>>> and in
>>>>> four days created in it all those provisions, which have been
>>>>> mentioned in
>>>>> the above verse.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is interesting to note that this second theory is sharply
>>>>> contradictory
>>>>> to the (usual) one given by Yusuf Ali, who includes the first two
>>>>> days in
>>>>> the second period of four days.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why did Yusuf Ali not think that explanation was at least worth
>>>>> mentioning?
>>>>> In other difficult passages he does give several options on how
>>>>> different
>>>>> scholars have explained it. The very fact that there exist
>>>>> contradictory
>>>>> explanations defies the above remark that this problem could
>>>>> "easily" be
>>>>> explained this way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway. Above I have expressed my doubts about the validity of
>>>>> Yusuf Ali's
>>>>> "harmonization", So let me explain why this explanation also falls
>>>>> short of
>>>>> being satisfactory for several reasons:
>>>>>
>>>>> The beginning of verse 11 is translated by Pickthall and Shakir by
>>>>> "THEN
>>>>> turned he to the heavens..." which does for sure indicate a tem****al
>>>>> sequence. For example Pickthal:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then He turned to the heaven, which was only smoke at that time.
>>>>> He said
>>>>> to the heaven and the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or
>>>>> unwillingly."
>>>>> It is specifically said, that the heavens were only smoke "at that
>>>>> time" (as
>>>>> this translation says it) or "when IT was smoke" or "and IT was
>>>>> va****" (as
>>>>> others say) [i.e. no stars and planets formed together yet out of
the
>>>>> smoke], which is stated in contrast to the earth whose formation
>>>>> was already
>>>>> finished as described in the immediately preceeding verses. If all
>>>>> of it
>>>>> were to be smoke and the forming of the earth and the heavens is a
>>>>> parallel
>>>>> action, then it would have to be something like "He turned to the
>>>>> heavens
>>>>> and the earth, when THEY were only like smoke ..." but that is not
>>>>> so, the
>>>>> smoke stage explicitely only refers to the heaven while the earth is
>>>>> addressed as a "finished" entity when God calls heaven and earth
>>>>> together.
>>>>> The earth was finished, only the firmament or "roof" was left to be
>>>>> finished
>>>>> up, and "all of it to be pulled together".
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that not a fair interpretation?
>>>>>
>>>>> That the earth is finished before God turns to the creation of the
>>>>> heaven is
>>>>> confirmed in Sura 2:29 which says,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> He it is Who hath created for you all that is on earth.
>>>>> Then He turned to the heaven, and made them into seven heavens.
>>>>> This makes again clear that all that is in/on the earth is created
>>>>> BEFORE
>>>>> God turns to the creation of the seven heavens. God cannot create
>>>>> things ON
>>>>> the earth before the earth itself is in existence. The Qur'an
>>>>> explicitly
>>>>> denies the second of the above proposed theories trying to solve
>>>>> the problem
>>>>> by identifying the first and the last two days.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having gotten a Muslim's response that the word "thumma" translated
>>>>> above as
>>>>> "then" can also mean "and" and not necessarily indicates an "after"
>>>>> in time,
>>>>> I want to respond that in this verse, the meaning is crystal clear
>>>>> to be a
>>>>> sequence. It doesn't even depend on the word "then" but the verb
>>>>> itself
>>>>> indicates the sequence of doing one thing and then TURNING to the
>>>>> next. If
>>>>> several tasks are done parallel then there is no "turning" from on
>>>>> to the
>>>>> other.
>>>>>
>>>>> Furthermore, there is yet to be found a verse in the Qur'an where
>>>>> "thumma"
>>>>> does signify a "parallelism" and not a "sequence".
>>>>>
>>>>> The existance of contradictory explanations is always the result of
>>>>> confusion and the sign that no theory is really fitting the data.
>>>>> If one
>>>>> explanation would really make full sense, then all others would
>>>>> have been
>>>>> abandoned long ago. This is not the case. The problem is still
>>>>> there and
>>>>> there is no solution that really captures the features of the text
>>>>> as it is
>>>>> given into a coherent interpretation.
>>>>>
>>>>> I acknowledge that I am not able to read the Arabic and I
>>>>> investigated this
>>>>> passage from the English translations only but the translators are
>>>>> experts
>>>>> in the Arabic language and usually one can trust them. I invite
>>>>> anybody who
>>>>> can give a clear exposition based on the (Arabic) text which makes
>>>>> good
>>>>> sense and solves the problem. But reading several translations
>>>>> which all
>>>>> agree on the basic features of the text, I do feel that my
>>>>> interpretation is
>>>>> coherent with the text, and all would be fine if this were the only
>>>>> text in
>>>>> the Qur'an about creation of heavens and earth, but since other
Qur'an
>>>>> passages say that it was six days and not eight, therefore it is
>>>>> indeed a
>>>>> rather obvious problem.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But this scenario also has its scientific problems. If we want to
>>>>> believe
>>>>> that the earth was fa****oned and filled with life first before the
>>>>> "smoke"
>>>>> was gathered into forming the heavens [stars, planets] then this
>>>>> contradicts
>>>>> very clearly all (current) scientific theories of astronomy.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Further there is a hadith in Sahih Muslim, Chapter MCLV, The
>>>>> beginning of
>>>>> creation and the creation of Adam, Hadith No. 6707:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Abu Huraira re****ted that Allah's Messenger (mpbuh) took hold of
>>>>> my hands
>>>>> and said: Allah the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on
>>>>> Saturday and
>>>>> He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on
>>>>> Monday and He
>>>>> created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on
>>>>> Wednesday and He caused animals to spread on Thursday and created
Adam
>>>>> (pbuh) after 'Asr on Friday; the last creation at the last hour of
>>>>> the hours
>>>>> of Friday, ie. between afternoon and night.
>>>>> From Saturday to Friday there are seven days. Now this doesn't say
>>>>> that
>>>>> these are all the days of creation, but there are at least seven
>>>>> days, maybe
>>>>> eight or more. But it does disagree without reconciliation with the
>>>>> account
>>>>> of the six day creation. And within these seven days Allah hasn't
done
>>>>> anything on the heavens yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 3, Number 1041 & 1042 also mention the
>>>>> creation of
>>>>> Adam on Friday. This does not square with the interpretation of
>>>>> days as
>>>>> "long periods". A Friday is not longer than a day and the other
>>>>> weekdays are
>>>>> not either.
>>>>>
>>>>> In Tafsir Al-Jalalyn we find this explanation:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 41:9 2 days meaning Sunday and Monday
>>>>> 41:10 4 days meaning Tuesday and Wednesday
>>>>>
>>>>> [fourth day instead of four days? he declares it to be two days,
>>>>> clearly
>>>>> in order to avoid just the above pointed out difficulty. He probably
>>>>> means that God created "the earth AND what is in it" in 4 days,
>>>>> just as
>>>>> Yusuf Ali re****ts it as the general opinion of the commentators.]
>>>>>
>>>>> 41:12 2 days meaning Thursday and Friday.
>>>>>
>>>>> In any case, we do see that both the above quoted hadith as well as
>>>>> this
>>>>> tafsir take the days literally, contradicting several "modern
>>>>> Muslims" who
>>>>> rather want to interpret these days as "periods" or "epochs". But
>>>>> obviously
>>>>> Muhammad himself as well as the early commentators did not see it
>>>>> that way.
>>>>>
>>>>> The tafsir in contradiction to the hadith seems to confess that
>>>>> Saturday is
>>>>> the Sabbath [day of rest] like in the Bible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jochen Katz
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Postscript
>>>>>
>>>>> There is an additional problem with this passage, namely a
>>>>> grammatical one.
>>>>> According to the late Iranian Islamic scholar, Ali Dashti, there is
>>>>> an error
>>>>> regarding the grammar of 41:11. Dashti wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ... Sky and earth in Arabic are feminine nouns, and the verb
>>>>> "said" in
>>>>> verse ten [note: in most English translations it is verse eleven] is
>>>>> accordingly feminine and dual; but the adjective "willing" at the
>>>>> end of the
>>>>> verse is masculine and plural, and thus at variance with the rules
>>>>> of the
>>>>> Arabic grammar. (Dashti, 23 Years: A Study of the Prophetic Career
of
>>>>> Mohammad, translated from the Persian by F.R.C. Bagley [Mazda
>>>>> Publishers,
>>>>> Costa Mesa, CA 1994], p. 163; bold emphasis mine)
>>>>>
>>>>> Arabic, unlike English, has not only singular and plural forms of
>>>>> verbs and
>>>>> adjectives. It also has a dual form that is used when the referent
>>>>> consists
>>>>> of two entities. The plural is used when three or more entities are
>>>>> in view.
>>>>> Verbs and adjectives also take on masculine and feminine forms as a
>>>>> way of
>>>>> corresponding to or identifying the gender of the subject or object
>>>>> within
>>>>> the sentence. To help the readers appreciate Dashti's point the
>>>>> following
>>>>> sentence is an attempt to mimic the error in the English:
>>>>>
>>>>> Rachel and Mary both said, "The three of us men come willingly."
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone reading this can clearly see the considerable grammatical
>>>>> errors of
>>>>> the sentence, confusing both gender and numbers. This is precisely
>>>>> what we
>>>>> find in Surah 41:11.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> HOW TO BECOME A ****SKIN MOSLEM - this is how: **** goats, molest
>>>> children, wear a beekeepers outfit all the time, never shower or
>>>> bath, beat your wives, learn terrorist activities at a maddrassa,
>>>> wipe your ass with stones, sell the donkey you ****ed to a nearby
>>>> village, marry a nine year-old , send your child off to an
>>>> indoctrination camp, practice thighing with little kids,
>>>> ............ Practice all those and you too could become a prophet
!!
>
>
HOW TO BECOME A ****SKIN MOSLEM - this is how: **** goats, **** your
mother (nikomak), molest children, wear a beekeepers outfit all the
time, never shower or bath, beat your wives, learn terrorist activities
at a maddrassa, wipe your ass with stones, sell the donkey you ****ed to
a nearby village, marry a nine year-old , send your child off to an
indoctrination camp, practice thighing with little kids, ............
Practice all those and you too could become a prophet !!
Elif air ab tizak mohammad !!!!
info@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or apache@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or
politicsIranian@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
moslem cartoon character mohammad and his bumchum allaah were child
molesting goat ****ers and nikomaks
_
/'_/)
,/_ /
/ /
/'_'/' '/'__'7,
/'/ / / /" /_\
('( ' /' ')
\ /
'\' _.7'
\ (
\ \
Up your ass mohammad - Elif air ab tizak!!!
info@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or apache@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or
politicsIranian@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
|
