On Thu, 22 May 2008 20:07:29 -0700 (PDT),
"swa@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
" <swager@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
spake thusly:
Let me thank you for your post and I hope you will
take my response in the spirit in which it is meant,
which is a love for God's word! :)
>The situation today is that evolution has been taught
>through the school systems since sometime before
>1962 in NSW in Biology, Botany and Geology
>(not sure of that one) courses and to Primary and
>Pre-school cl***** from sometime after 1975. That
>means that all children have been indoctrinated as
>those promoting Evolution state that it *is* science.
And since the 60's, lots of things have skyrocketed!
Abortion, violence in schools, disrespect to parents,
etc., etc.. It is hard to have children grow up to be
respectful, when they are taught that they are animals!
And then of course, parents are stupid enough
(most are just stupid, period) to say to their kids;
"Don't act like an animal!" and to them smack
the kid, when he says; "But we learned in school
today that we are animals." and calling him just
a "smart ass", which he/she probably was being,
but the point is that he/she was right and as
parents, we should be stunned and take action
against the schools!
And Christian parents are the worse of the worse,
lazy, not caring idiots! And I say that, because
they are the ones who are supposed to know better
and so, are the ones who are to be held the most
accountable!
Christian parents don't bother saying a word,
when their kids are taught that they are animals
and that macroevolution "is a fact".
Shame! Shame! Shame on them!!!
>I would be of the opinion that it is better to say that
>from certain presuppositions (ie changes have occurred
>in the past and those changes have developed new
>species) that evolutionists have given the idea that their
>deliberations/research studies have been scientifically
>proven. I do not believe that to be so. Creationism,
>(God Almighty created by the power of His word)
>also, cannot be scientifically proven.
Macroevolution has less "proof" and it cannot be
scientifically proven! No "theory" (which evolution
is not, it is only a hypothesis) can be proved! If it
were proved, then it would not still be a theory! :)
The fact is, Creation has more evidence than evolution
and this is another stupid blunder that Christians make!
They do ZERO RESEARCH and SAY NOTHING and then
think that this somehow makes them good parents and
good Christians!
They may whine that they aren't scientists, but frankly,
one does not have to be a scientist to know what's what!
And btw Christians, DARWIN WAS NOT A SCIENTIST!!!
In fact, evolution was NOT his idea!!! And yet, here,
this non-scientist, who held no degrees in science
and was nothing more than a failed, drop out, nobody
ministry student, is for some reason revered like a god!
The truth is, he was sent on the Beagle (****p) because
his father was fed up with him and wanted to cart him
off somewhere, hoping he'd get a job! But Charlie
couldn't even do that right and instead, decided to
wander around on an island, pretending to be someone!
And then, because this idiot claims that people and
bananas are related (yes, he actually said that),
we are now all indoctrinated into that idea in our
schools?! Say what people?! Hello?!? McFly?!?
>As for those who accept that God could have created
>using evolution, I belive that they are Christian by
>the Biblical verses given above
I'm sorry, but that is a serious misuse of Scripture!
Grace is not given to those who reject God's word
and nowhere does Eph 2:8-9 say; "You can reject
whatever part of the Scriptures you wish and still
claim to be a Christian." !!!
Please stop being afraid of hurting peoples' feelings
and in reality, ending up stating all kinds of untruths,
because it's more im****tant to you not to have
anyone mad at you, than it is to tell the truth!
How are you supposed to spread the truth, if you
are in reality, just accepting whatever crapola they
choose to believe as "Christianity"?!?
PEOPLE WHO DENY GOD'S WORD, ARE NOT SAVED!!!
PEOPLE WHO DENY GOD'S WORD, ARE NOT SAVED!!!
PEOPLE WHO DENY GOD'S WORD, ARE NOT SAVED!!!
PEOPLE WHO DENY GOD'S WORD, ARE NOT SAVED!!!
PEOPLE WHO DENY GOD'S WORD, ARE NOT SAVED!!!
PEOPLE WHO DENY GOD'S WORD, ARE NOT SAVED!!!
PEOPLE WHO DENY GOD'S WORD, ARE NOT SAVED!!!
Got it now? :)
The truth is, that you are singling out a couple of
passages and not only that, but claiming that they
say something that they do not say, period!
The Bible says the following, which your extremely
bad twisting of Eph 2:8-9 says isn't true...
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof,
for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
- 2 Timothy 3:16
The fact is, that the above, among other things,
says that ALL Scripture (NOT just what people
choose to accept) is to be used for correction.
Now here's the news flash, in case you didn't
get it... In order TO correct, it must BE correct!
And that, very simply, means that any doctrine
or belief that says that ANY part of Scripture is
not accurate, is false! And the fact is, that Jesus
rules by HIS WORDS! That is the sword that is
sticking out of His mouth in Revelation and it is
also the "rod of iron" that He rules with!
"Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's
vessel." - Psalm 2:9
"And he shall rule them with a rod of iron;
as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken
to ****vers: even as I received of my Father."
- Revelation 2:7
Christ rules, "in the midst of His enemies"!
It is not about some "new planet"...
"The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength
out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies!"
- Psalm 110:2
....which proves that it is not on some "Earth
without sin being required, for Christ to rule
the nations", but rather, this passage shows
that He would rule, IN THE MIDST OF HIS
ENEMIES!
"But with righteousness shall he judge the poor,
and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth:
and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his
mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he
slay the wicked." - Isaiah 11:4
Note: He will smite the Earth with the rod of
*_HIS MOUTH_* !
And He would slay the wicked with *THE BREATH
OF HIS LIPS*!!! It is HIS WORDS that defeat them!
He will smite the Earth with the rod of *HIS MOUTH*!
And He would slay the wicked with *the breath
of His lips*. It is *His word* that defeats them! :)
"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of
my mouth: it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please,
and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I
sent it." - Isaiah 55:11
My point here, is that to say that the Creation did not
happen, as described in Genesis, is to deny that the
word of Christ is true! Especially since He believed
in the Creation!
And not only this, but it is even worse! It is to say
that Jesus WAS WRONG!!! It really is the same
thing as saying that Jesus was just flat out wrong!
>but I believe that, not only Christians, but those
>who are not Christian, should read as much as
>they can from the Creation scientist's perspective
>to determine whether their model is more plausible
>than the model given by the Secular Evolutionists.
I disagree that a Christian denies God's word, which
is exactly what is happening with these people and
please, DO NOT bother trying to make excuses for
them! People do that and never stop to think about
what they're doing, which is the same thing as saying;
"Hey, let me defend those who call the word of God
a lie!". (:
The reason I don't call them Christians, is because
they profess to believe the middle and the end,
but not the beginning! And the fact is, whether
you or they want to admit it or not, it is impossible
for Christ to be the Savior, is Creation did not happen!
Think about this carefully, please and let us see together
just exactly what it is that Jesus believed and as you will
see, them claiming it is an allegory doesn't work either! :)
I mean, where does God say in Genesis, that it wasn't
really Him, it was evolution?
The fact is, God said in Genesis 1:26, "Let US MAKE".
And in Genesis 2:7, it states clearly that God was
directly involved...
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of
the ground and breathed into his nostrils the
breath of life; and man became a living soul."
- Genesis 2:7
"God formed man" And God, "breathed into his nostrils
the breath of life".
To believe in evolution, is to disbelieve the Bible!
And while Theistic Evolutionists put God's world
above God's word, the fact is, that I do not believe
that they can be Christians if they do not believe
in the Creation, as it is stated in the Bible.
Part of the message of salvation, is the Creation and
believing in the Creator. When Paul and Barnabas
preached to those wor****pping nature, they said to
them; "...turn from these vanities unto the living God,
which made heaven and earth and the sea and all things
that are therein:" - Acts 14:15. Paul believed it too!
Were Jesus and the Apostles wrong about the Creation?!
Any statements about God and evolution being compatible
are built on a faulty premise, which is that one can believe
in Christ and in evolution. Scripturally, that is not
possible! And anyone who says it is, is trying to twist
the first chapter of Genesis to cover whatever they want
to believe about Him, so long as they believe He existed
and died on the cross, etc.. But that's the wrong question
and frankly, evolutionists are great at getting people to
ask the wrong questions! The real question is, What does
it mean to believe in Jesus Christ?". Believing in Jesus
Christ also means believing in what He said AND what
the Bible (the WHOLE Bible) says about Him, period,
no two ways about it, no exceptions to this rule, period!
So what does it say about Christ? After all, who is He?
That's where we must start, to see if we should trust
His words, amen?
Well, the Bible says He's the Creator...
John 1:1-3
1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was
with God, and the Word WAS GOD.
2) The same was in the beginning with God.
3) All things were made by him; and without him was
not any thing made that was made.
14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten
of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Now if He's the Creator, then He knows how it happened!
So the question then becomes, what did Jesus consider
"the beginning"?
In Matthew 19, Jesus refers to Adam and Eve as the
beginning of humankind. Theistic evolutionists will
try to tell me that I'm misreading the Bible and I'm
just inserting my interpretation.
Talk about misreading the Bible! Where does Jesus say,
"Once man and ape split off from a common ancestor
and finally developed into modern humans, then Adam
and Eve..." ???
You see, it's the evolutionists who are misreading the
Bible and twisting it and applying an "interpretation".
I'm simply reading it as it's written.
Jesus also told us that Moses was speaking about Him.
And note what He said...
John 5:45-47
45) Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father:
there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom
ye trust.
46) For had ye believed Moses, YE WOULD HAVE
BELIEVED ME: for he wrote of me.
47) BUT IF YE BELIEVE NOT HIS WRITINGS,
HOW SHALL YE BELIEVE MY WORDS?
Now what it says. Jesus is saying (even though
He wasn't specifically dealing with evolution here,
but yes, it can be applied to anything that Moses
wrote about) that when we say that the Creation
did not happen, that we do not believe the writings
of Moses, since Moses wrote Genesis-Deuteronomy
and that if we do not believe the writings of Moses,
then we do not believe Jesus' words!
I.e., If we don't believe what Moses wrote about Him,
then how can we believe what He says?
That's a very powerful statement!!!
And no, I won't get into the garbage argument that
says that maybe Moses didn't write those books!
1) It is still Scripture regardless.
2) Jesus said that Moses wrote them and to say
otherwise, is to call Jesus either wrong, or a
liar and we're right back where we started
in this discussion, which is showing that no,
people cannot deny the word of God and
still claim to be a Christian!
3) The Bible teaches that Christ was involved in
the Creation and so, He knows what happened!
So what did Moses write of Him? Well, a number
of things. Right now, we're going to focus on the
relevant passages. But let's understand first, that it
was Christ who was dealing with Moses. It was Christ
who spoke to Moses. It was Christ who followed them
out there...
1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1) Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should
be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under
the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud
and in the sea;
3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they
drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and
THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.
And what did Christ say about the Creation to Moses?
Exodus 20:8-11
8) Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10) But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord
thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou,
nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant,
nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger
that is within thy gates:
11) For in SIX DAYS the Lord made heaven and earth,
the sea, AND ALL THAT IN THEM IS and rested the
seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath
day, and hallowed it.
He said "six days". Now you either those who state
that Jesus is their Saviour believe Him, or they don't,
thereby denying Him, period. Anything else they say,
is adding to the Bible, since the Bible says, "six days".
Theistic evolutionists can speculate about the "six days"
all they want, but that's all they have, is speculation.
And those who try to make it into millions of years
have a big problem! Speaking of this seven day
period (six days and the Sabbath) and keeping
the statement about this six days in the context
in which it is quoted from, did God command man
to work six millions years and rest for one million
years? :) No! :)
It's clear that He is talking about six literal days
of Creation, when the passage is taken in context.
In order to make it anything other than six literal
days, they have to rip it out of its context of the
Sabbath day rest!
The fact is that "In the beginning, God created"...
And He did it in six days and said He did it in six days
(Exodus 20:11). Jesus believed that and referenced it,
in Matthew 19:3-8 and in other places!
And since the Theistic Evolutionists try to play a word game
with Genesis 1, we must go back to Genesis 1 and see what
we find there.
Now this is, of course, where people will try to start
the "Genesis 2 contradicts Genesis 1", because they
simply do not wish to face the facts about what it
says and think they can distract from the real issue!
Watch for this type of response from some! You'll see! :)
The truth is, that they don't contradict each other at all,
but as I said, that is another discussion.
Now they will insert here, "How can you say that?!
Of course they do!", once again thinking we're
stupid enough to be distracted and in reality,
trying to hijack the thread, for the sole purpose
of getting this message buried in a series of them,
so that they don't have to face the facts!
So please, DO NOT let them distract you!!! We will deal
with the little word game that they try to play with the
word "day" and what it actually means! :)
Going back to Genesis, it is im****tant to note something
about the word usage there in the original language
(Hebrew). The original Hebrew word for "day" ("yom"),
is never used to mean anything but a literal day in the
Bible, when a numerical adjective is present ("second,
third, etc.). Are we to believe that this is somehow
the one and only exception and that God would start
out His word with a deception?
Now people will try to tell me that God used language
that "ignorant, primitive man could understand".
That's ridiculous!
First off, man was a lot smarter then, than we give him
credit for! Language, for example, gets much more
complex, the farther we go back and it has taken scholars
decades to even begin to decipher some of them. The
Egyptians had batteries thousands of years ago, etc..
Secondly, what is so hard to understand about God saying;
"First there were animals, including apes and God brought
man forth from these apes". No, it wouldn't have been
difficult at all to tell man in that time, that we came from
apes, period!
Theistic evolutionists may claim that man wouldn't
understand the mechanisms involved. Well, even
if everything was created in six days, as I contend,
man still wouldn't understand the mechanisms involved.
So that's a non-point! In fact, we still wouldn't,
so what is the difference?!
No, that is a misleading statement by the theistic
evolutionist, period!
The Bible also makes it clear that no one died
before Adam.
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all
be made alive." - 1 Corinthians 15:22
If that isn't true and man existed before Adam, then
the whole concept of Jesus as our Saviour is ridiculous,
since God would be holding everyone since Adam
responsible for their sin and no one before that.
And what about the other humans alive at the time,
if Adam was not the first man?
And why would we need a Saviour, if evolution is true?
After all, man would simply be an animal and would be
acting as God made Him to act. Like an animal.
So if there is no original sin from one man, then where
is the need for a Saviour? We wouldn't need one and
therefore, Jesus cannot be the Savior at that point,
since He would have been on the foolish mission to
save us from The Fall/original sin, when it never
actually happened and so, we do not need salvation!
Yet the Bible makes it clear that we do need a Saviour
and that Jesus is, "the last Adam".
"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made
a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening
spirit." - 1 Corinthians 15:45
As atheist Richard Bozarth said... "Evolution destroys
utterly and finally the very reason Jesus' earthly life
was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam
and Eve and the original sin and in the rubble,
you will find the sorry remains of the Son of God.
If Jesus was not the Redeemer... and this is what
evolution means, then Christianity is nothing."
I think he summed it up pretty well! :)
Now if only folks who claim they are Christians and
believe in evolution, were honest with themselves!
They claim that man came from ape, yet the Bible
tells us that Jesus was "the last Adam", not,
"the last ape"!
What Theistic Evolutionists believe cannot possibly be
reconciled with Scripture and it makes Jesus a useless,
made over monkey, without the ability to be a sacrifice!
The Bible tells us that death came by sin and sin
came by Adam...
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men,
for that all have sinned:" - Romans 5:12
The Bible tells us that Jesus believed in Adam and Eve
and after all, He should know, since He was there!
"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read,
that he which made them at the beginning made them
male and female," - Matthew 19:4
Do you see it? He said... "Have ye NOT READ"!!!
Scripture trumps all and Jesus said it was true!!!
And now, notice the next verse. While the evolutionists
try to put millions of years into the Creation (which
Genesis 1 & 2 doesn't sup****t), what did Jesus say
about it?
"But from the beginning of the creation God made them
male and female." - Mark 10:6
Not just "the beginning", as if it were millions of years
ago, but rather, the beginning OF THE CREATION.
Do you see that??? from the beginning of the Creation!
There is no "billions of years until man shows up"!
And where is that account found? In Genesis! Jesus
knew this, of course, as did those who were listening
to Him. They read the Scriptures and knew what they
said. Here, Jesus is confirming the absolute truth of
the Creation account, found in Genesis. Adam and Eve
were there, right from go, just like all other life,
separated only by a few days. And Jesus tells us
that it happened that way. Remember, in Mat 19:4,
He said... "Have ye not READ...". Now, is He talking
about Darwin's book here? No. As I said, He is
confirming the Genesis account.
Do you see it? He said... "Have ye NOT READ"!!!
Scripture trumps all and Jesus said it was true!!!
Now what argument would a REAL CHRISTIAN
DARE to make against that CLEAR statement?!
How does one maintain that they are a Christian
and say that the Creation did not happen?!
So what conclusions can logically be drawn from this?
Well, it seems to leave us with three options:
1) Jesus believed in the Creation, as described
in Genesis, but He just didn't know modern
science, which of course, means that He couldn't
have been there at the Creation and the Bible
is lying about that. This would disqualify Him
as our Saviour, since our Saviour has to be free
from sin and error and therefore, there's no point
in Theistic Evolutionists saying that they believe
in Him as such.
2) Jesus was intentionally lying about who He was,
or intentionally misleading the people, even though
He knew evolution was reality, which of course,
disqualifies Him as Saviour and means that the
concept of original sin is a lie, which, once again,
means that God lied about it in His written word
to mankind. And no, the argument about them
not being able to understand it, is not a valid
argument, as I pointed out and even if He did say
something like that in the New Testament text,
it would still mean that He lied to Moses in Genesis.
How can a liar be our Saviour?
3) Jesus was right and knew what He was talking
about, since He was there and it was done
through Him ("Let US make..." - Gen 1:26).
That is the logical conclusion to draw from
the text of the Bible itself.
Which one do you choose? And why? And if you say
it's because the Bible says so, then why do you make
excuses for Theistic Evolutionists?
You see, YOU KNOW that you would not reject God's
word, because you feel inside that it would be the
same thing as rejecting the Christian faith, because
Creation is what the Bible teaches and you would be
VERY AFRAID to reject this basic truth!
But yet, when it comes to Theistic Evolutionists, then,
all of the sudden, you forget all about this fact and
say that it's fine that they believe in evolution, which
denies God's word, because hey, they're still Christians
after all!
Since when does one become a Christian, by accepting
man's word over God's, thereby rejecting God's word?
And would you please tell us how this process works?
I'm sure there are many who would love to believe
whatever they want and substitute their own judgment
of whether or not a part or parts of the Bible are true
or not, replacing God's word with their own judgment
and still be accepted as a Christian.
So please... Tell the audience here how this works,
because trust me, when you try to make the Bible
more palatable for sinful man, you'll have a damn
big audience!
The truth is, that no matter what they do, they
simply cannot escape these facts! Either Jesus
was right, or He was wrong, or He was lying!
One of those three.
If it's the first, then they are liars, when they claim
to believe in evolution and call Jesus their Lord and
Saviour! It simply cannot be! They may not have
seen that and if it was unintentional on their part,
then so be it. But now they know, if they read this
message. As the Lord Jesus Christ said...
"If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had
not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin."
- John 15:22
And there is no more excuse for it. Now it is sin
to them, because they know better, period!
They do what they want, but their way is the way that,
misreads the Bible" and it is they who must resolve the
problems that their belief brings to the table. As for
me, I have a hard time believing anyone is saved, who
says that they believe in Jesus as His Lord and Saviour
and evolution, when in order to do so, they must call
Jesus a liar, or ignorant and try to convince me that
it's okay to say that they believe the end and reject
the beginning! As I said, Genesis 1 & 2 do not allow
for evolution! So my advice to Theistic Evolutionists,
is to pick a side, because they can't have both!
Not with any integrity! They are incompatible!
I hope they'll choose to side with God! :)
The funny part is, that science actually lines up with
the Bible. Man started in Africa, for example. And
instead of them questioning how long ago that happened,
they choose to accept what unbelievers say and question
the Bible's time line! They may say they're not doing
that, but they are indeed!
So tell me, where does the Bible say that man evolved
from ape? They can say that it isn't a scientific book,
but that doesn't solve any of the problems! They still
have the problems I mentioned above and the fact is,
that the Bible is accurate when it touches on matters
of science! The fact is, that they consider what they
believe to be true and yet, they don't have any evidence
for it! And then they try to point their finger at others.
That's hypocritical! The fact is, they call their belief
science and that binds them to show scientific evidence.
So they haven't even made a valid point at all!
>> >>They are not. Latter day creationists are
>> >>no threat to science or scientists, but they
>> >>are to education. If their lies
>
>You say 'lies', but the fact is they are coming to
>different conclusions to those you have accepted.
It is the evolutionist that constantly lies!
And if we are "no threat" to them, then why do they
spend so much time trying to convince us it's not true?!
And no, their lie that they're "just trying to help"
won't wash, since they hate God and Christians
and they know it!
Of course, now comes the claim that they don't
hate God, because they can't hate a God that
doesn't exist, which is another lie, since if that
were true, then they wouldn't spend so much
time spewing their venom at Him in their posts!
In fact, alt.atheism wouldn't even exist, since
what it mostly is, is people posting messages
that are nothing more than railings against God!
Atheists crack me up! Here are the guys who tell us
that we can't think for ourselves and that they're the
"free thinkers" and that we're all just sheep and yet,
they're the ones who sign their posts with their numbers
(a.a. #4365 and such)!
Yea, they're not sheep at all! Bawahahaha!!! <chuckle>
--
"The real mark of someone who wants to know the Truth
is not that they expect others to prove it to them,
but that they seek after it themselves." - Chayil
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