lynx wrote:
> Chris Bell wrote:
>
>> Chuck Stamford wrote:
>>
>>> "Chris Bell" <cbell@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>> news:iA9Xj.1468$IK1.577@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>>> Chuck Stamford wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Chris Bell" <cbell@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>>> news:pjWWj.1314$IK1.1285@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>
>>>>>> Barry OGrady wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 14 May 2008 06:03:21 GMT, Chris Bell
>>>>>>> <cbell@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Barry OGrady wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ninure is a lesbian, which the bible tells us is a sin worthy
>>>>>>>>> of death.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Really? Must be a different bible to mine, which never mentions
>>>>>>>> female homo***uality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Romans 1
>>>>>>> 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and wor****pped and
>>>>>>> served
>>>>>>> the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
>>>>>>> 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> women did change the natural use into that which is against
nature:
>>>>>>> 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the
woman,
>>>>>>> burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that
>>>>>>> which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> error which was meet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hmmm. My translation differs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 26 ... Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural..."
>>>>>> which suggests either anal intercourse or using a dildo.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, I think I am right and you are misinterpreting the verse.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's given in the context of the text, Chris, that Paul is speaking
>>>>> about homo***ual ***, not masturbation or anal ***.
>>>>>
>>>>> "LIKEWISE the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in
>>>>> their lust one for another"
>>>>>
>>>>> If he says "likewise", and then goes on to say the men burned for
>>>>> each other having left the natural use of the woman, how is that
>>>>> "suggesting" masturbation is in view? Or anal *** for that matter??
>>>>>
>>>> Pretty clear to me. "Natural intercourse" being called the natural
>>>> use, and anal *** being the unnatural, which is what men do.
>>>
>>>
>>> But it's not what women do, obviously. You still are ignoring
>>> "likewise" here.
>>>
>> It doesn't say the women were having *** *with each other*. It may be
>> that they were having anal *** as a means of contraception. Hence the
>> likewise refers to their method of *** ie anal, which is then followed
>> by the men who no longer need women at all. IMO this a more logical
>> reading of the passage.
>>
>> I repeat that there is no definite mention of lesbians in the bible.
>
>
> NIV version:
>
> "They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and wor****ped and served
> created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
> Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women
> exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the
> men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with
> lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and
> received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."
>
> ESV version:
>
> "Because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and wor****ped and
> served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever!
> Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For
> their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to
> nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and
> were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless
> acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their
error."
>
> Those would tend to sup****t Chuck's view. ('shameful lusts' and
> 'dishonourable passions').
>
My interpretation is that the shameful lust is anal ***. Hence also
shameless acts in vs 27. Its not very clear though, and we may need
better information from the time as to what these expressions actually
meant. You must remember that male homo***uality was common in Greek
society, so Paul may have been particularly obtuse in his choice of
words. I wonder what the "due penalty in themselves" was?
>>
>> Chris
>
>
>
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