Re: Hell II (Was: Rational thought etc.)

On May 10, 11:25=A0am, Sean McHugh  wrote:
> Andrew Lamb wrote:
> > On 5/05/2008 3:15:33 PM, misanthropic_curmudgeon wrote:
> > > On May 3, 12:22 pm, Sean McHugh  wrote:
> > > [snip]
> > >> ~ In 1999, Pope John Paul II made headlines by saying hell should
be
> > >> ~ seen not as a fiery underworld but as "the state of those who
> > >> ~ freely and definitively separate themselves from God,
>
> > > That is hell? A life without any reference to gods, pixies, and
> > > externally imposed absolutes, threats, or manipulation? =A0If you'll
> > > excuse the pun, it sounds like heaven to me!!
>
> > A life without any reference to gods? The world already has that, in
Nor=
th
> > Korea, where the even word "god" was banned decades ago - see
> >http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/5393#saltminesI
encourage you
to=

> > emigrate to there Curmudgeon, then you would really get a taste of
hell,=

> > oops, 'heaven' on earth.
>
> > In fact atheist regimes have a consistent record of producing hell on
ea=
rth -
> > Stalin in the USSR and Mao in China, who murdered citizens by the tens
o=
f
> > millions. Pol Pot in Cambodia, and Robespierre in France, wannabees
who =
tried
> > hard but just had far fewer citizens available to kill. See the
two-minu=
te
> > FoolsHeart cliphttp://www.foolsheart.comfor
a brief overview of the
> > hell-on-earth produced by atheists when they get into power.
>
> That's designed for the wilfully incompetent Christians who will
> enthusiastically lap it up. Those listed leaders probably didn't
> believe in pyramid power either but that too is not the reason they
> murdered. Their wars were for political gain and were unlikely to have
> been impelled by their unbelief in Zeus, Thor or the Rainbow Serpent.

> Conversely one can point to many examples where religion has had a
> _direct_ motivation (or justification) for atrocities. If one is to
> believe the Old Testament, it abounds with atrocities over religious
> disagreement, that were supposedly carried out with God's sanction.

The Old Testament record should be read considering the context of the
times.
We
> can then look at the Crusades,

The Crusades were a response to the islamic invasion of North Africa
through to Spain and south-east Europe.

the Inquisitions,

were part of the Counter-Reformation against the work of Wycliffe in
England and Luther in Germany, both of whom had sought changes in the
teachings that the Church of Rome had adopted. . It was a matter of
obey the Vatican or else!

the Conquistadors and

Came about as the Spaniards went into parts of the Americas.
Understandable that the native peoples resisted, and the Spaniards
fired back with superior weapons. One of many tragedies as Europeans
moved out into the previously  unknown world  following Columbus's
voyage and motivated by the loss of access to the east by the Moslem
blockage of the trade routes.

> the witch hunts. In a time of ignorance devinat attitudes to perceived
tru=
ths were treated harshly

We can also look a long period in history call the
> Dark Ages. It was a time of religious struggle and control and a time
> when things went backwards. In more modern times,

I have read that the dark Ages is the period in Europe following
invasion by the Vandals of probably noth eastern Europe.

Hitler's Nazis had
> on the belt buckles, "Gott mit uns". It means, "God is with us". They
> too had religious justification for atrocities. Would anyone go into
> battle wearing, "Unbelief is with us"? Today we can look at the
> Islamic states (something your examples omit) where the religion is
> also the Law. 'Sharia', 'Jihad' and 'infidel' are products of
> religion. We don't want that sort of stupidity and that is why western
> states have secular governments (already) in power. Secular is
> essentially a-theistic.
>
Hitler allowed his ideas about Germany's defeat in WW! to determine
his attiudes, and with occultic and evolutionary ideas he saw himself
as  the one to remake Germany as the most advanced country in Europe -
the 'Aryan race' was to be the leaders. Instead they faced a shocking
defeat.
However, there were Germans and persons of German descent together
with persons of many other nationalities who worked against him both
in that country and from overseas. .

http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/3054

Gladys Swager