Chris Bell wrote:
> Chuck Stamford wrote:
>> "Chris Bell" <cbell@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> news:OYtVj.37$IK1.15@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>> Chuck Stamford wrote:
>>>
>>>> "**Rowland Croucher**" <rccroucher@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
>>>>
>>>>> Chuck Stamford wrote:
>>>>>> Given those two statements, and taking them as making literally
>>>>>> true statements, unless you can find Billy Graham saying he
>>>>>> believes all come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, what
>>>>>> you've got here isn't really all that strong a case for him being
>>>>>> a universalist like Rowland is;
>>>>>
>>>>> Where have I said categorically that I'm a universalist?
>>>>
>>>> Where have you categorically ever said that you are anything? It
>>>> takes integrity to make a categorical statement of one's beliefs,
>>>> integrity to say, this is what I believe, and then stand and defend
>>>> it against its challengers,
>>>
>>> Nonsense. Anyone can parrot off a statement of beliefs, without
>>> actually believing a word of it. Integrity is the living out of those
>>> beliefs, even while not necessarily believing them.
>>
>>
>> Integrity is acting on beliefs you don't have??? Have you gone 'round
>> the bend, Chris?
>>
> Possibly. But I have a different take on beliefs to you. Where is it in
> the gospels that someone says to Jesus "Help me in my unbelief"?
>
> What we actually need is faith, even without belief. Have faith in
> Jesus, even in unbelief, and you are acting with integrity. Notice that
> the operative word is "acting".
>
>> Besides, who said anything about "parroting" a statement of beliefs.
>> I said it takes integrity to make one's TRUE beliefs KNOWN, and then
>> defend them against all comers.
>>
> And I repeat my point is that it is only when you are tested in action
> that you discover what you truly believe, or at least that is my
> experience. Hence the power of almost all good literature and movies.
> When have you had to pit your life or home or friends or family against
> what you believe? The book of Job is in the bible for a good reason.
>>
>>>> No, Rowland, you've never "categorically" stated you are a
>>>> universalist. You've just taken every op****tunity you ever had to
>>>> either argue for that belief yourself, or provide article after
>>>> article by others who either do, or express sympathy for that
>>>> belief. That makes you worse than a universalist, Rowland, for a
>>>> universalist is "either warm or cold" (they TAKE A STAND), and you
>>>> are neither.
>>>
>>> See above. Rowland takes many "stands" as you call them, and I would
>>> never call him either warm or cold. He is definitely in the "hot"
>>> category!
>>
>> Easy to say, Chris. Give me an example of Rowland making a firm,
>> clear expression of a belief he has, and then justifying it against
>> its challengers.
>>
> I will let Rowland speak for himself, but in my experience he has done
> pretty well in going into bat for those who cannot do it themselves. Two
> examples here in arc - Dawn and Ninere (?).
It's *Ninure*: she's doing well at the moment, according to her emails
and Facebook communications. (Anyone else here a Facebook person? It's
an interesting way to keep in touch with friends...)
But Dawn Rowan's pretty low (see http://dawnrowansaga.blogspot.com/
).
We spent several hours last night trying to put into words various
communications with powers-that-be...
>> I can cite you example after example where he has simply thrown a
>> panoply of differing beliefs at people who were truly seeking guidance
>> in their search for truth. Is that your idea of what a minister of
>> the Gospel is supposed to do?
>>
> Yes. Absolutely.
It's actually a responsible pedagogical method, rather than/ in
additional to an especially Christian one. True teachers allow people to
look at all sides of a question, and make up their own minds. Treating
adults like children (or Pharisees... who have to posit everything in
black-and-white credal terms) is, as Henri Nouwen wrote, a 'violent'
rather than 'redemptive' way for a teacher to teach (in his book
'Creative Ministry').
> Chris
--
Shalom/Salaam/Pax! Rowland Croucher
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/
(20,000 articles 4000 humor)
Blogs - http://rowlandsblogs.blogspot.com/
Justice for Dawn Rowan - http://dawnrowansaga.blogspot.com/
Funny Jokes and Pics - http://funnyjokesnpics.blogspot.com/
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