In news:1PDUj.8696$ko5.2038@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<none@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> typed:
>>>> good news runner ::: wrote:
>
>> In news:48229c25$0$17505$afc38c87@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> **Rowland Croucher** <rccroucher@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> typed:
>>
>>> lynx wrote:
>>>
>>>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote
>>>>> lynx wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Athanasius <dcn_athanas...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:14:36 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>>> Local: Wed, Apr 30 2008 12:14 pm
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: The Wall
>>>>>>> <>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I do not think that Rowland believes in "Hell" as a place of
>>>>>>>> pain and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> separation. Nor do I think Rowland believes any humans go to
>>>>>>> such a "hell" anyway. So in his mind he is not leading anyone
>>>>>>> there, you see.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I read this today, and I can't think of a better response:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Questioner, to Billy Graham on his last visit to Harvard:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 'Since Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man
>>>>>>> cometh to the Father but by me" doesn't that mean people from
>>>>>>> other religions - Jews and the rest - are going to hell?'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Billy replied,'I'm sure glad God is the judge of people's hearts
>>>>>>> and not me! And I trust God to decide those questions justly and
>>>>>>> mercifully.'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The student was disappointed and pressed further, 'Well, what do
>>>>>>> you think God will decide?'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Graham demurred, 'Well, God doesn't really ask my advice on
>>>>>>> those matters.'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> As usual you have not addressed the issue, which is.. (a) whether
>>>>>> YOU believe in Hell 'as a place of pain and separation' from God.
>>>>>> ie. the existence and purpose of it... and.. (b) whether YOU
>>>>>> believe ANY 'humans go to such a "hell" anyway'. C'mon Rowland-
>>>>>> speak up! For someone who is a Baptist minister with several
>>>>>> theological qualifications, written umpteen books, given umpteen
>>>>>> lectures, and has a website with zillions of views, those two
>>>>>> simple questions should not be too hard.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Ah... the quest for simple questions and simple answers!
>>>>>
>>>> Simple answers are usually the most accurate. And if truth is the
>>>> issue, then answers can only be RIGHT or WRONG regardless of how
>>>> much 'explanation' is involved.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In another thread here somewhere the issue of Jesus speaking in
>>>>> parables was raised. Jesus in the gospels only anwered directly
>>>>> three questions he was asked. Why was that? 'Cos like any good
>>>>> teacher he wanted his students to think through their own
>>>>> faith-responses. Their faith would be child-like, not childish...
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway:
>>>>>
>>>>> In my experience there are four broad views held by people who
>>>>> claim to be Christians about hell. The whole subject is
>>>>> problematical, particularly for the second and third groups. The
>>>>> first and fourth categories have more clear-cut positions.
>>>>>
>>>>> But first, here's one statement of the problem, in the preface to
>>>>> Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion chapter 8: 'What's wrong with
>>>>> religion? Why be so hostile?' (p. 279).
>>>>>
>>>>> "Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible
>>>>> man - living in the sky - who watches everything you do, every
>>>>> minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of
>>>>> ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these
>>>>> ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and
>>>>> burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live
>>>>> and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever
>>>>> 'til the end of time... But he loves you!" (George Carlin).
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Some *sectarians* I've met actually believe that only they - or
>>>>> perhaps one or two other groups very much like them - will go to
>>>>> heaven. The majority of the human race will suffer eternal
>>>>> torment - including babies, mad people, and those who've never
>>>>> heard of Christ. These people preach about hell 'without tears in
>>>>> their voice', and even with hatred, seeming to give the impression
>>>>> they're happy these other infidels - including many who call
>>>>> themselves Christians, but are apostate - will spend eternity in
>>>>> hell, without reprieve. 2. The second group - *conservative* or
>>>>> evangelical Christians -
>>>>> believe the majority of the human race is destined for hell, but
>>>>> may take seriously the Romans 2:15 suggestion that some who
>>>>> follow the law ('written on their hearts/conscience') will
>>>>> 'perhaps be excused' on the day of judgment - together with young
>>>>> children, mad people, and maybe others totally ignorant of the
>>>>> Christian gospel. There is another significant sub-group who
>>>>> believe in some form of 'conditional immortality' or
>>>>> 'annihilationism': the souls of those who resist God actually
>>>>> 'perish', cease to exist in the after-life. My hunch is that this
>>>>> doctrine is partly driven by the horrible notion of everlasting
>>>>> torment or torture being incompatible with the will of a loving
>>>>> God. John Stott belongs there somewhere. 3. The third group - I'll
>>>>> call them *progressive* Christians -
>>>>> believe that yes, there is a hell, but we mustn't take
>>>>> literalistic black and white (or cold/hot) categories of
>>>>> existence into the spirit-world. Hell and heaven are an eternal
>>>>> experiencing of the attitudes we've cultivated in this life.
>>>>> Richard Rohr ('Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality') seems
>>>>> to hold a view roughly like this. 4. *Universalists* believe
>>>>> God's love and grace can't be finally
>>>>> conquered by unbelief or rebellion. All will be saved. 'As in Adam
>>>>> all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive' (1 Corinthians
>>>>> 15:22) is their text. Every human dies; every human is loved
>>>>> unconditionally by God and will experience bliss forever.
>>>>> (However, moving to an 'ultra-liberal' extreme, I know a
>>>>> Christian minister who doesn't believe in the after-life; I know
>>>>> another who affirms reincarnation). Now, they're very broad
>>>>> categories, and there are more
>>>>> sub-categories within each than I've mentioned.
>>>>>
>>>>> But that'll do for now... I'll be back when my ISP fixes its
>>>>> newsgroup server and fewer people demand my time with problems!!!
>>>>>
>>>> LOL! You are one of a kind Rowland. Thanks for all that, but as
>>>> usual you've ignored my question! Here it is again, stated as
>>>> simply as I can make it. "What do YOU believe about Hell?" Or
>>>> should we just assume that despite all your qualifications,
>>>> preaching, lectures, books, and your wonderful website with it's
>>>> zillions of views, you really have absolutely no idea what you
>>>> believe?
>>> Pete, I would have thought, after all the scrutiny you've given my
>>> theology over the years, you'd know...
>>>
>>> I shouldn't do this, because as a teacher I'm violating the basic
>>> ethic of teaching adults (teach people how to think, not what to
>>> think)... but here's a clue:
>>>
>>> I don't belong in categories 1 or 4 - and never have... despite the
>>> assertions of some posters here who claim to know more definitively
>>> what I believe than I do :-)
>>>
>>> Now... avaguess :-)!
>>>
>>
>> Mr. Croucher wants to keep this a secret. ROTFL!
>>
>
> It seems he wants to inform about various positions, views, and
> beliefs, but without being accountable for his own- if he even has
> any!
Absolutely. You got that right again, Pete! But Christians should stand
up for their faith. And the Lord does not really like lukewarm
Christians. Just read Rev. 3:15-16.
>> --
>> ___________________________________________________
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:::::::
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>> ::::::: http://alpha.org/default.asp
:::::::
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> rgds,
>
> Pete
> =====
> http://pw352.blogspot.com/
> 'I'm not young enough to know everything' -Oscar Wilde
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