"lynx" <none@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:v1SUj.8851$ko5.4556@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Chuck Stamford wrote:
>
>> "lynx" <none@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> news:u5DUj.8692$ko5.592@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>>
>>>> lynx wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> lynx wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> lynx wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: Athanasius <dcn_athanas...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:14:36 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>>>>>> Local: Wed, Apr 30 2008 12:14 pm
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: The Wall
>>>>>>>>>> <>
>>>>>>>>>> I do not think that Rowland believes in "Hell" as a place of
pain
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> separation. Nor do I think Rowland believes any humans go to
such
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> "hell" anyway. So in his mind he is not leading anyone there,
you
>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I read this today, and I can't think of a better response:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Questioner, to Billy Graham on his last visit to Harvard:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 'Since Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man
>>>>>>>>>> cometh to the Father but by me" doesn't that mean people from
>>>>>>>>>> other religions - Jews and the rest - are going to hell?'
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Billy replied,'I'm sure glad God is the judge of people's
hearts
>>>>>>>>>> and not me! And I trust God to decide those questions justly
and
>>>>>>>>>> mercifully.'
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The student was disappointed and pressed further, 'Well, what
do
>>>>>>>>>> you think God will decide?'
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Graham demurred, 'Well, God doesn't really ask my advice on
those
>>>>>>>>>> matters.'
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As usual you have not addressed the issue, which is.. (a)
whether
>>>>>>>>> YOU believe in Hell 'as a place of pain and separation' from
God.
>>>>>>>>> ie. the existence and purpose of it... and.. (b) whether YOU
>>>>>>>>> believe ANY 'humans go to such a "hell" anyway'. C'mon Rowland-
>>>>>>>>> speak up! For someone who is a Baptist minister with several
>>>>>>>>> theological qualifications, written umpteen books, given umpteen
>>>>>>>>> lectures, and has a website with zillions of views, those two
>>>>>>>>> simple questions should not be too hard.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ah... the quest for simple questions and simple answers!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Simple answers are usually the most accurate. And if truth is the
>>>>>>> issue, then answers can only be RIGHT or WRONG regardless of how
>>>>>>> much 'explanation' is involved.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In another thread here somewhere the issue of Jesus speaking in
>>>>>>>> parables was raised. Jesus in the gospels only anwered directly
>>>>>>>> three questions he was asked. Why was that? 'Cos like any good
>>>>>>>> teacher he wanted his students to think through their own
>>>>>>>> faith-responses. Their faith would be child-like, not childish...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyway:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In my experience there are four broad views held by people who
>>>>>>>> claim to be Christians about hell. The whole subject is
>>>>>>>> problematical, particularly for the second and third groups. The
>>>>>>>> first and fourth categories have more clear-cut positions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But first, here's one statement of the problem, in the preface to
>>>>>>>> Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion chapter 8: 'What's wrong with
>>>>>>>> religion? Why be so hostile?' (p. 279).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible
>>>>>>>> man - living in the sky - who watches everything you do, every
>>>>>>>> minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of
>>>>>>>> ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these
>>>>>>>> ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and
>>>>>>>> burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live
and
>>>>>>>> suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever
'til
>>>>>>>> the end of time... But he loves you!" (George Carlin).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. Some *sectarians* I've met actually believe that only they -
or
>>>>>>>> perhaps one or two other groups very much like them - will go to
>>>>>>>> heaven. The majority of the human race will suffer eternal
>>>>>>>> torment - including babies, mad people, and those who've never
>>>>>>>> heard of Christ. These people preach about hell 'without tears in
>>>>>>>> their voice', and even with hatred, seeming to give the
impression
>>>>>>>> they're happy these other infidels - including many who call
>>>>>>>> themselves Christians, but are apostate - will spend eternity in
>>>>>>>> hell, without reprieve.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. The second group - *conservative* or evangelical Christians -
>>>>>>>> believe the majority of the human race is destined for hell, but
>>>>>>>> may take seriously the Romans 2:15 suggestion that some who
follow
>>>>>>>> the law ('written on their hearts/conscience') will 'perhaps be
>>>>>>>> excused' on the day of judgment - together with young children,
mad
>>>>>>>> people, and maybe others totally ignorant of the Christian
gospel.
>>>>>>>> There is another significant sub-group who believe in some form
of
>>>>>>>> 'conditional immortality' or 'annihilationism': the souls of
those
>>>>>>>> who resist God actually 'perish', cease to exist in the
after-life.
>>>>>>>> My hunch is that this doctrine is partly driven by the horrible
>>>>>>>> notion of everlasting torment or torture being incompatible with
>>>>>>>> the will of a loving God. John Stott belongs there somewhere.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3. The third group - I'll call them *progressive* Christians -
>>>>>>>> believe that yes, there is a hell, but we mustn't take
literalistic
>>>>>>>> black and white (or cold/hot) categories of existence into the
>>>>>>>> spirit-world. Hell and heaven are an eternal experiencing of the
>>>>>>>> attitudes we've cultivated in this life. Richard Rohr ('Things
>>>>>>>> Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality') seems to hold a view roughly
>>>>>>>> like this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4. *Universalists* believe God's love and grace can't be finally
>>>>>>>> conquered by unbelief or rebellion. All will be saved. 'As in
Adam
>>>>>>>> all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive' (1 Corinthians
>>>>>>>> 15:22) is their text. Every human dies; every human is loved
>>>>>>>> unconditionally by God and will experience bliss forever.
(However,
>>>>>>>> moving to an 'ultra-liberal' extreme, I know a Christian minister
>>>>>>>> who doesn't believe in the after-life; I know another who affirms
>>>>>>>> reincarnation).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now, they're very broad categories, and there are more
>>>>>>>> sub-categories within each than I've mentioned.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But that'll do for now... I'll be back when my ISP fixes its
>>>>>>>> newsgroup server and fewer people demand my time with
problems!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> LOL! You are one of a kind Rowland. Thanks for all that, but as
>>>>>>> usual you've ignored my question! Here it is again, stated as
simply
>>>>>>> as I can make it. "What do YOU believe about Hell?" Or should we
>>>>>>> just assume that despite all your qualifications, preaching,
>>>>>>> lectures, books, and your wonderful website with it's zillions of
>>>>>>> views, you really have absolutely no idea what you believe?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pete, I would have thought, after all the scrutiny you've given my
>>>>>> theology over the years, you'd know...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I shouldn't do this, because as a teacher I'm violating the basic
>>>>>> ethic of teaching adults (teach people how to think, not what to
>>>>>> think)... but here's a clue:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't belong in categories 1 or 4 - and never have... despite the
>>>>>> assertions of some posters here who claim to know more definitively
>>>>>> what I believe than I do :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now... avaguess :-)!
>>>>>>
>>>>> What is wrong with you? why can't you answer simple questions? are
we
>>>>> supposed to think that all you want to do is POSE questions for ppl
or
>>>>> others to answer? do you consider that to a be a suitable role for a
>>>>> minister of religion?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Yes, if that minister is a follower of Jesus and his didactic
method...
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Well whatever.. The fact remains that you can't tell me what you
believe
>>> about Hell, and just about anything else I've asked about the
christian
>>> faith, so that leaves me only with the conclusion that you simply
don't
>>> know what you truly believe, and everything I've seen of you confirms
>>> that.
>>>
>>
>> Pete, the guy is all smoke and mirrors, as I'm sure you know by now.
>>
>
> Or putting it bluntly.. he's a bull**** artist. I guess I just have
> trouble believing it tho. But I'll just have to get over this 'minister
on
> a pedestal' idea of mine.
>
>> You're right, it was a simple question; one that any pastor should have
>> been able to answer.
>
> Right.
>
>> The dodge about teaching methods, etc. is just that, a dodge.
>
> Exactly! And a History teacher could teach you History, an English
teacher
> their subject, so it's not at all unreasonable to expect a christian
> minster to be able to tell anyone about Christianity- and I don't care
> what anyone says to the contrary!
>
>> Rowland knows as well as you do that no one on any of these
newsgroups
>> in the header is going to be swayed to believe as he does just because
he
>> expresses his belief.
>
> I don't expect him to be right. I only expect him to state his position.
>
>> Clearly Jesus had no difficulty imparting what He believed to be true
to
>> His disciples, and His primary method in relaying this information to
>> them was to simply ANSWER THEIR QUESTIONS, or in some other fa****on
>> EXPRESS those beliefs. Who could read the NT and come away with the
idea
>> that Jesus was reluctant to express His beliefs about Hell as a place
of
>> eternal punishment for the wicked?
>>
>> But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a
>> cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to
his
>> brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall
>> say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Matt 5:22 (KJV)
>> And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee:
>> for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish,
and
>> not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
>> 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from
thee:
>> for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish,
and
>> not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Matt 5:29-30 (KJV)
>>
>> And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the
soul:
>> but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in
hell.
>> Matt 10:28 (KJV)
>>
>> And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought
down
>> to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had
been
>> done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. Matt 11:23 (KJV)
>>
>> And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I
will
>> build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matt
>> 16:18 (KJV)
>>
>> And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it
is
>> better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two
>> eyes to be cast into hell fire. Matt 18:9 (KJV)
>>
>> Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and
>> land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold
more
>> the child of hell than yourselves Matt 23:15 (KJV)
>>
>> Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation
of
>> hell? Matt 23:33 (KJV)
>>
>> And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter
>> into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire
>> that never shall be quenched:
>> 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
>> 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to
>> enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into
the
>> fire that never shall be quenched:
>> 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
>> 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to
>> enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be
>> cast into hell fire:
>> 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark
9:43-48
>> (KJV)
>>
>> But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he
hath
>> killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luke
>> 12:5 (KJV)
>>
>> And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham
>> afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
>> 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send
>> Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my
>> tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:23-24 (KJV)
>>
>> How could ANYONE, putting their trust in this Person, and being
>> conversant with the NT, even suggest or allow anyone to believe they
>> questioned the existence of this place of eternal punishment for the
>> wicked; however Jesus went on to define the "wicked". Yet that is
>> EXACTLY what our "minister" Rowland does at every op****tunity.
However,
>> as with so many mealy-mouthed "Christians" these days, they are too
>> cowardly to be "up front" about it. They use carefully worded
sentences,
>> and they quote others a great deal, and they package the whole thing as
a
>> "teaching" exercise. Well, the fact is, no one needs a teacher here.
>> All they need know is how to read, and how to make up their own minds
>> about what they've read. There is no question Jesus taught Hell.
>
> Right again Chuck. There's no question about it. The evidence is
> plentiful.
>
>> The question is, do you believe it?
>>
>
> Are you asking me? I'm not obliged to have a view. :)
I wasn't asking you to answer here, Pete. The "you" was generic, and
you're
not putting yourself forward as any sort of Christian, lay person or
minister.
>
>> You may note that question has a familiar ring to it? I think it's the
>> same one you asked Rowland to answer?
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Chuck Stamford
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> rgds,
>
> Pete
> =====
> http://pw352.blogspot.com/
> 'I'm not young enough to know everything' -Oscar Wilde
>
>
|
