Chuck Stamford wrote:
> "lynx" <none@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:u5DUj.8692$ko5.592@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>
>>> lynx wrote:
>>>
>>>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> lynx wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> lynx wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: Athanasius <dcn_athanas...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:14:36 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>>>>> Local: Wed, Apr 30 2008 12:14 pm
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: The Wall
>>>>>>>>> <>
>>>>>>>>> I do not think that Rowland believes in "Hell" as a place of
pain
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> separation. Nor do I think Rowland believes any humans go to
such a
>>>>>>>>> "hell" anyway. So in his mind he is not leading anyone there,
you
>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I read this today, and I can't think of a better response:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Questioner, to Billy Graham on his last visit to Harvard:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 'Since Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man
>>>>>>>>> cometh to the Father but by me" doesn't that mean people from
other
>>>>>>>>> religions - Jews and the rest - are going to hell?'
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Billy replied,'I'm sure glad God is the judge of people's hearts
>>>>>>>>> and not me! And I trust God to decide those questions justly and
>>>>>>>>> mercifully.'
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The student was disappointed and pressed further, 'Well, what do
>>>>>>>>> you think God will decide?'
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Graham demurred, 'Well, God doesn't really ask my advice on
those
>>>>>>>>> matters.'
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As usual you have not addressed the issue, which is.. (a) whether
>>>>>>>> YOU believe in Hell 'as a place of pain and separation' from God.
>>>>>>>> ie. the existence and purpose of it... and.. (b) whether YOU
believe
>>>>>>>> ANY 'humans go to such a "hell" anyway'. C'mon Rowland- speak
up!
>>>>>>>> For someone who is a Baptist minister with several theological
>>>>>>>> qualifications, written umpteen books, given umpteen lectures,
and
>>>>>>>> has a website with zillions of views, those two simple questions
>>>>>>>> should not be too hard.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah... the quest for simple questions and simple answers!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Simple answers are usually the most accurate. And if truth is the
>>>>>> issue, then answers can only be RIGHT or WRONG regardless of how
much
>>>>>> 'explanation' is involved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In another thread here somewhere the issue of Jesus speaking in
>>>>>>> parables was raised. Jesus in the gospels only anwered directly
three
>>>>>>> questions he was asked. Why was that? 'Cos like any good teacher
he
>>>>>>> wanted his students to think through their own faith-responses.
Their
>>>>>>> faith would be child-like, not childish...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my experience there are four broad views held by people who
claim
>>>>>>> to be Christians about hell. The whole subject is problematical,
>>>>>>> particularly for the second and third groups. The first and fourth
>>>>>>> categories have more clear-cut positions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But first, here's one statement of the problem, in the preface to
>>>>>>> Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion chapter 8: 'What's wrong with
>>>>>>> religion? Why be so hostile?' (p. 279).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible
>>>>>>> man - living in the sky - who watches everything you do, every
minute
>>>>>>> of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten
things
>>>>>>> he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things,
he
>>>>>>> has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and
torture
>>>>>>> and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn
and
>>>>>>> choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time...
But
>>>>>>> he loves you!" (George Carlin).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Some *sectarians* I've met actually believe that only they - or
>>>>>>> perhaps one or two other groups very much like them - will go to
>>>>>>> heaven. The majority of the human race will suffer eternal torment
-
>>>>>>> including babies, mad people, and those who've never heard of
Christ.
>>>>>>> These people preach about hell 'without tears in their voice', and
>>>>>>> even with hatred, seeming to give the impression they're happy
these
>>>>>>> other infidels - including many who call themselves Christians,
but
>>>>>>> are apostate - will spend eternity in hell, without reprieve.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. The second group - *conservative* or evangelical Christians -
>>>>>>> believe the majority of the human race is destined for hell, but
may
>>>>>>> take seriously the Romans 2:15 suggestion that some who follow the
>>>>>>> law ('written on their hearts/conscience') will 'perhaps be
excused'
>>>>>>> on the day of judgment - together with young children, mad people,
>>>>>>> and maybe others totally ignorant of the Christian gospel. There
is
>>>>>>> another significant sub-group who believe in some form of
>>>>>>> 'conditional immortality' or 'annihilationism': the souls of those
>>>>>>> who resist God actually 'perish', cease to exist in the
after-life.
>>>>>>> My hunch is that this doctrine is partly driven by the horrible
>>>>>>> notion of everlasting torment or torture being incompatible with
the
>>>>>>> will of a loving God. John Stott belongs there somewhere.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3. The third group - I'll call them *progressive* Christians -
>>>>>>> believe that yes, there is a hell, but we mustn't take
literalistic
>>>>>>> black and white (or cold/hot) categories of existence into the
>>>>>>> spirit-world. Hell and heaven are an eternal experiencing of the
>>>>>>> attitudes we've cultivated in this life. Richard Rohr ('Things
>>>>>>> Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality') seems to hold a view roughly
like
>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4. *Universalists* believe God's love and grace can't be finally
>>>>>>> conquered by unbelief or rebellion. All will be saved. 'As in Adam
>>>>>>> all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive' (1 Corinthians
15:22)
>>>>>>> is their text. Every human dies; every human is loved
unconditionally
>>>>>>> by God and will experience bliss forever. (However, moving to an
>>>>>>> 'ultra-liberal' extreme, I know a Christian minister who doesn't
>>>>>>> believe in the after-life; I know another who affirms
reincarnation).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now, they're very broad categories, and there are more
sub-categories
>>>>>>> within each than I've mentioned.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But that'll do for now... I'll be back when my ISP fixes its
>>>>>>> newsgroup server and fewer people demand my time with problems!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL! You are one of a kind Rowland. Thanks for all that, but as
usual
>>>>>> you've ignored my question! Here it is again, stated as simply as I
>>>>>> can make it. "What do YOU believe about Hell?" Or should we just
>>>>>> assume that despite all your qualifications, preaching, lectures,
>>>>>> books, and your wonderful website with it's zillions of views, you
>>>>>> really have absolutely no idea what you believe?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Pete, I would have thought, after all the scrutiny you've given my
>>>>> theology over the years, you'd know...
>>>>>
>>>>> I shouldn't do this, because as a teacher I'm violating the basic
ethic
>>>>> of teaching adults (teach people how to think, not what to think)...
>>>>> but here's a clue:
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't belong in categories 1 or 4 - and never have... despite the
>>>>> assertions of some posters here who claim to know more definitively
>>>>> what I believe than I do :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Now... avaguess :-)!
>>>>>
>>>> What is wrong with you? why can't you answer simple questions? are we
>>>> supposed to think that all you want to do is POSE questions for ppl
or
>>>> others to answer? do you consider that to a be a suitable role for a
>>>> minister of religion?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Yes, if that minister is a follower of Jesus and his didactic
method...
>>>
>>>
>> Well whatever.. The fact remains that you can't tell me what you
believe
>> about Hell, and just about anything else I've asked about the christian
>> faith, so that leaves me only with the conclusion that you simply don't
>> know what you truly believe, and everything I've seen of you confirms
>> that.
>>
>
> Pete, the guy is all smoke and mirrors, as I'm sure you know by now.
>
Or putting it bluntly.. he's a bull**** artist. I guess I just have
trouble believing it tho. But I'll just have to get over this 'minister
on a pedestal' idea of mine.
> You're right, it was a simple question; one that any pastor should have
been
> able to answer.
Right.
> The dodge about teaching methods, etc. is just that, a dodge.
Exactly! And a History teacher could teach you History, an English
teacher their subject, so it's not at all unreasonable to expect a
christian minster to be able to tell anyone about Christianity- and I
don't care what anyone says to the contrary!
> Rowland knows as well as you do that no one on any of these
> newsgroups in the header is going to be swayed to believe as he does
just
> because he expresses his belief.
I don't expect him to be right. I only expect him to state his position.
> Clearly Jesus had no difficulty imparting
> what He believed to be true to His disciples, and His primary method in
> relaying this information to them was to simply ANSWER THEIR QUESTIONS,
or
> in some other fa****on EXPRESS those beliefs. Who could read the NT and
come
> away with the idea that Jesus was reluctant to express His beliefs about
> Hell as a place of eternal punishment for the wicked?
>
> But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a
cause
> shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his
brother,
> Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou
fool,
> shall be in danger of hell fire. Matt 5:22 (KJV)
> And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee:
for
> it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not
> that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
> 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee:
for
> it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not
> that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Matt 5:29-30 (KJV)
>
> And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the
soul:
> but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
> Matt 10:28 (KJV)
>
> And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought
down to
> hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been
done
> in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. Matt 11:23 (KJV)
>
> And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will
> build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matt
> 16:18 (KJV)
>
> And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is
> better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two
eyes
> to be cast into hell fire. Matt 18:9 (KJV)
>
> Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and
land
> to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the
> child of hell than yourselves Matt 23:15 (KJV)
>
> Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of
> hell? Matt 23:33 (KJV)
>
> And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter
into
> life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that
never
> shall be quenched:
> 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
> 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to
enter
> halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire
> that never shall be quenched:
> 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
> 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to
> enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be
cast
> into hell fire:
> 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark
9:43-48
> (KJV)
>
> But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he
hath
> killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. Luke
> 12:5 (KJV)
>
> And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham
afar
> off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
> 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send
> Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my
tongue;
> for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:23-24 (KJV)
>
> How could ANYONE, putting their trust in this Person, and being
conversant
> with the NT, even suggest or allow anyone to believe they questioned the
> existence of this place of eternal punishment for the wicked; however
Jesus
> went on to define the "wicked". Yet that is EXACTLY what our "minister"
> Rowland does at every op****tunity. However, as with so many
mealy-mouthed
> "Christians" these days, they are too cowardly to be "up front" about
it.
> They use carefully worded sentences, and they quote others a great deal,
and
> they package the whole thing as a "teaching" exercise. Well, the fact
is,
> no one needs a teacher here. All they need know is how to read, and how
to
> make up their own minds about what they've read. There is no question
Jesus
> taught Hell.
Right again Chuck. There's no question about it. The evidence is
plentiful.
> The question is, do you believe it?
>
Are you asking me? I'm not obliged to have a view. :)
> You may note that question has a familiar ring to it? I think it's the
same
> one you asked Rowland to answer?
>
> All the best,
>
> Chuck Stamford
>
>
>
--
rgds,
Pete
=====
http://pw352.blogspot.com/
'I'm not young enough to know everything' -Oscar Wilde
|
