"lynx" <none@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:u5DUj.8692$ko5.592@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>
>> lynx wrote:
>>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>>
>>>> lynx wrote:
>>>>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> lynx wrote:
>>>>>>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Athanasius <dcn_athanas...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:14:36 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>>>> Local: Wed, Apr 30 2008 12:14 pm
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: The Wall
>>>>>>>> <>
>>>>>>>> I do not think that Rowland believes in "Hell" as a place of pain
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> separation. Nor do I think Rowland believes any humans go to such
a
>>>>>>>> "hell" anyway. So in his mind he is not leading anyone there, you
>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I read this today, and I can't think of a better response:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Questioner, to Billy Graham on his last visit to Harvard:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 'Since Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man
>>>>>>>> cometh to the Father but by me" doesn't that mean people from
other
>>>>>>>> religions - Jews and the rest - are going to hell?'
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Billy replied,'I'm sure glad God is the judge of people's hearts
>>>>>>>> and not me! And I trust God to decide those questions justly and
>>>>>>>> mercifully.'
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The student was disappointed and pressed further, 'Well, what do
>>>>>>>> you think God will decide?'
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Graham demurred, 'Well, God doesn't really ask my advice on those
>>>>>>>> matters.'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As usual you have not addressed the issue, which is.. (a) whether
>>>>>>> YOU believe in Hell 'as a place of pain and separation' from God.
>>>>>>> ie. the existence and purpose of it... and.. (b) whether YOU
believe
>>>>>>> ANY 'humans go to such a "hell" anyway'. C'mon Rowland- speak up!
>>>>>>> For someone who is a Baptist minister with several theological
>>>>>>> qualifications, written umpteen books, given umpteen lectures, and
>>>>>>> has a website with zillions of views, those two simple questions
>>>>>>> should not be too hard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah... the quest for simple questions and simple answers!
>>>>>
>>>>> Simple answers are usually the most accurate. And if truth is the
>>>>> issue, then answers can only be RIGHT or WRONG regardless of how
much
>>>>> 'explanation' is involved.
>>>>>
>>>>>> In another thread here somewhere the issue of Jesus speaking in
>>>>>> parables was raised. Jesus in the gospels only anwered directly
three
>>>>>> questions he was asked. Why was that? 'Cos like any good teacher he
>>>>>> wanted his students to think through their own faith-responses.
Their
>>>>>> faith would be child-like, not childish...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my experience there are four broad views held by people who
claim
>>>>>> to be Christians about hell. The whole subject is problematical,
>>>>>> particularly for the second and third groups. The first and fourth
>>>>>> categories have more clear-cut positions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But first, here's one statement of the problem, in the preface to
>>>>>> Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion chapter 8: 'What's wrong with
>>>>>> religion? Why be so hostile?' (p. 279).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible
>>>>>> man - living in the sky - who watches everything you do, every
minute
>>>>>> of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten
things
>>>>>> he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things,
he
>>>>>> has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture
>>>>>> and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and
>>>>>> choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time...
But
>>>>>> he loves you!" (George Carlin).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Some *sectarians* I've met actually believe that only they - or
>>>>>> perhaps one or two other groups very much like them - will go to
>>>>>> heaven. The majority of the human race will suffer eternal torment
-
>>>>>> including babies, mad people, and those who've never heard of
Christ.
>>>>>> These people preach about hell 'without tears in their voice', and
>>>>>> even with hatred, seeming to give the impression they're happy
these
>>>>>> other infidels - including many who call themselves Christians, but
>>>>>> are apostate - will spend eternity in hell, without reprieve.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. The second group - *conservative* or evangelical Christians -
>>>>>> believe the majority of the human race is destined for hell, but
may
>>>>>> take seriously the Romans 2:15 suggestion that some who follow the
>>>>>> law ('written on their hearts/conscience') will 'perhaps be
excused'
>>>>>> on the day of judgment - together with young children, mad people,
>>>>>> and maybe others totally ignorant of the Christian gospel. There is
>>>>>> another significant sub-group who believe in some form of
>>>>>> 'conditional immortality' or 'annihilationism': the souls of those
>>>>>> who resist God actually 'perish', cease to exist in the after-life.
>>>>>> My hunch is that this doctrine is partly driven by the horrible
>>>>>> notion of everlasting torment or torture being incompatible with
the
>>>>>> will of a loving God. John Stott belongs there somewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. The third group - I'll call them *progressive* Christians -
>>>>>> believe that yes, there is a hell, but we mustn't take literalistic
>>>>>> black and white (or cold/hot) categories of existence into the
>>>>>> spirit-world. Hell and heaven are an eternal experiencing of the
>>>>>> attitudes we've cultivated in this life. Richard Rohr ('Things
>>>>>> Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality') seems to hold a view roughly
like
>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4. *Universalists* believe God's love and grace can't be finally
>>>>>> conquered by unbelief or rebellion. All will be saved. 'As in Adam
>>>>>> all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive' (1 Corinthians
15:22)
>>>>>> is their text. Every human dies; every human is loved
unconditionally
>>>>>> by God and will experience bliss forever. (However, moving to an
>>>>>> 'ultra-liberal' extreme, I know a Christian minister who doesn't
>>>>>> believe in the after-life; I know another who affirms
reincarnation).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, they're very broad categories, and there are more
sub-categories
>>>>>> within each than I've mentioned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But that'll do for now... I'll be back when my ISP fixes its
>>>>>> newsgroup server and fewer people demand my time with problems!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL! You are one of a kind Rowland. Thanks for all that, but as
usual
>>>>> you've ignored my question! Here it is again, stated as simply as I
>>>>> can make it. "What do YOU believe about Hell?" Or should we just
>>>>> assume that despite all your qualifications, preaching, lectures,
>>>>> books, and your wonderful website with it's zillions of views, you
>>>>> really have absolutely no idea what you believe?
>>>>
>>>> Pete, I would have thought, after all the scrutiny you've given my
>>>> theology over the years, you'd know...
>>>>
>>>> I shouldn't do this, because as a teacher I'm violating the basic
ethic
>>>> of teaching adults (teach people how to think, not what to think)...
>>>> but here's a clue:
>>>>
>>>> I don't belong in categories 1 or 4 - and never have... despite the
>>>> assertions of some posters here who claim to know more definitively
>>>> what I believe than I do :-)
>>>>
>>>> Now... avaguess :-)!
>>>
>>> What is wrong with you? why can't you answer simple questions? are we
>>> supposed to think that all you want to do is POSE questions for ppl or
>>> others to answer? do you consider that to a be a suitable role for a
>>> minister of religion?
>>>
>> Yes, if that minister is a follower of Jesus and his didactic method...
>>
>
> Well whatever.. The fact remains that you can't tell me what you believe
> about Hell, and just about anything else I've asked about the christian
> faith, so that leaves me only with the conclusion that you simply don't
> know what you truly believe, and everything I've seen of you confirms
> that.
Pete, the guy is all smoke and mirrors, as I'm sure you know by now.
You're right, it was a simple question; one that any pastor should have
been
able to answer. The dodge about teaching methods, etc. is just that, a
dodge. Rowland knows as well as you do that no one on any of these
newsgroups in the header is going to be swayed to believe as he does just
because he expresses his belief. Clearly Jesus had no difficulty
imparting
what He believed to be true to His disciples, and His primary method in
relaying this information to them was to simply ANSWER THEIR QUESTIONS, or
in some other fa****on EXPRESS those beliefs. Who could read the NT and
come
away with the idea that Jesus was reluctant to express His beliefs about
Hell as a place of eternal punishment for the wicked?
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a
cause
shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his
brother,
Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou
fool,
shall be in danger of hell fire. Matt 5:22 (KJV)
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for
it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not
that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee:
for
it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not
that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Matt 5:29-30 (KJV)
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 10:28 (KJV)
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down
to
hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done
in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. Matt 11:23 (KJV)
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will
build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matt
16:18 (KJV)
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is
better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two
eyes
to be cast into hell fire. Matt 18:9 (KJV)
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and
land
to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the
child of hell than yourselves Matt 23:15 (KJV)
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of
hell? Matt 23:33 (KJV)
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter
into
life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that
never
shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter
halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire
that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to
enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be
cast
into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:43-48
(KJV)
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath
killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. Luke
12:5 (KJV)
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar
off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send
Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my
tongue;
for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:23-24 (KJV)
How could ANYONE, putting their trust in this Person, and being conversant
with the NT, even suggest or allow anyone to believe they questioned the
existence of this place of eternal punishment for the wicked; however
Jesus
went on to define the "wicked". Yet that is EXACTLY what our "minister"
Rowland does at every op****tunity. However, as with so many mealy-mouthed
"Christians" these days, they are too cowardly to be "up front" about it.
They use carefully worded sentences, and they quote others a great deal,
and
they package the whole thing as a "teaching" exercise. Well, the fact is,
no one needs a teacher here. All they need know is how to read, and how
to
make up their own minds about what they've read. There is no question
Jesus
taught Hell. The question is, do you believe it?
You may note that question has a familiar ring to it? I think it's the
same
one you asked Rowland to answer?
All the best,
Chuck Stamford
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