**Rowland Croucher** wrote:
> lynx wrote:
>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>
>>> lynx wrote:
>>>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> lynx wrote:
>>>>>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Athanasius <dcn_athanas...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:14:36 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>>> Local: Wed, Apr 30 2008 12:14 pm
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: The Wall
>>>>>>> <>
>>>>>>> I do not think that Rowland believes in "Hell" as a place of
>>>>>>> pain and
>>>>>>> separation. Nor do I think Rowland believes any humans go to such
a
>>>>>>> "hell" anyway. So in his mind he is not leading anyone there, you
>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I read this today, and I can't think of a better response:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Questioner, to Billy Graham on his last visit to Harvard:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 'Since Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man
>>>>>>> cometh to the Father but by me" doesn't that mean people from
>>>>>>> other religions - Jews and the rest - are going to hell?'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Billy replied,'I'm sure glad God is the judge of people's hearts
>>>>>>> and not me! And I trust God to decide those questions justly and
>>>>>>> mercifully.'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The student was disappointed and pressed further, 'Well, what do
>>>>>>> you think God will decide?'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Graham demurred, 'Well, God doesn't really ask my advice on
>>>>>>> those matters.'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As usual you have not addressed the issue, which is.. (a) whether
>>>>>> YOU believe in Hell 'as a place of pain and separation' from God.
>>>>>> ie. the existence and purpose of it... and.. (b) whether YOU
>>>>>> believe ANY 'humans go to such a "hell" anyway'. C'mon Rowland-
>>>>>> speak up! For someone who is a Baptist minister with several
>>>>>> theological qualifications, written umpteen books, given umpteen
>>>>>> lectures, and has a website with zillions of views, those two
>>>>>> simple questions should not be too hard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah... the quest for simple questions and simple answers!
>>>>
>>>> Simple answers are usually the most accurate. And if truth is the
>>>> issue, then answers can only be RIGHT or WRONG regardless of how
>>>> much 'explanation' is involved.
>>>>
>>>>> In another thread here somewhere the issue of Jesus speaking in
>>>>> parables was raised. Jesus in the gospels only anwered directly
>>>>> three questions he was asked. Why was that? 'Cos like any good
>>>>> teacher he wanted his students to think through their own
>>>>> faith-responses. Their faith would be child-like, not childish...
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway:
>>>>>
>>>>> In my experience there are four broad views held by people who
>>>>> claim to be Christians about hell. The whole subject is
>>>>> problematical, particularly for the second and third groups. The
>>>>> first and fourth categories have more clear-cut positions.
>>>>>
>>>>> But first, here's one statement of the problem, in the preface to
>>>>> Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion chapter 8: 'What's wrong with
>>>>> religion? Why be so hostile?' (p. 279).
>>>>>
>>>>> "Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible
>>>>> man - living in the sky - who watches everything you do, every
>>>>> minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of
>>>>> ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these
>>>>> ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and
>>>>> burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live
>>>>> and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever
>>>>> 'til the end of time... But he loves you!" (George Carlin).
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Some *sectarians* I've met actually believe that only they - or
>>>>> perhaps one or two other groups very much like them - will go to
>>>>> heaven. The majority of the human race will suffer eternal torment
>>>>> - including babies, mad people, and those who've never heard of
>>>>> Christ. These people preach about hell 'without tears in their
>>>>> voice', and even with hatred, seeming to give the impression
>>>>> they're happy these other infidels - including many who call
>>>>> themselves Christians, but are apostate - will spend eternity in
>>>>> hell, without reprieve.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. The second group - *conservative* or evangelical Christians -
>>>>> believe the majority of the human race is destined for hell, but
>>>>> may take seriously the Romans 2:15 suggestion that some who follow
>>>>> the law ('written on their hearts/conscience') will 'perhaps be
>>>>> excused' on the day of judgment - together with young children,
>>>>> mad people, and maybe others totally ignorant of the Christian
>>>>> gospel. There is another significant sub-group who believe in some
>>>>> form of 'conditional immortality' or 'annihilationism': the souls
>>>>> of those who resist God actually 'perish', cease to exist in the
>>>>> after-life. My hunch is that this doctrine is partly driven by the
>>>>> horrible notion of everlasting torment or torture being
>>>>> incompatible with the will of a loving God. John Stott belongs
>>>>> there somewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. The third group - I'll call them *progressive* Christians -
>>>>> believe that yes, there is a hell, but we mustn't take
>>>>> literalistic black and white (or cold/hot) categories of existence
>>>>> into the spirit-world. Hell and heaven are an eternal experiencing
>>>>> of the attitudes we've cultivated in this life. Richard Rohr
>>>>> ('Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality') seems to hold a view
>>>>> roughly like this.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. *Universalists* believe God's love and grace can't be finally
>>>>> conquered by unbelief or rebellion. All will be saved. 'As in Adam
>>>>> all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive' (1 Corinthians
>>>>> 15:22) is their text. Every human dies; every human is loved
>>>>> unconditionally by God and will experience bliss forever.
>>>>> (However, moving to an 'ultra-liberal' extreme, I know a Christian
>>>>> minister who doesn't believe in the after-life; I know another who
>>>>> affirms reincarnation).
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, they're very broad categories, and there are more
>>>>> sub-categories within each than I've mentioned.
>>>>>
>>>>> But that'll do for now... I'll be back when my ISP fixes its
>>>>> newsgroup server and fewer people demand my time with problems!!!
>>>>
>>>> LOL! You are one of a kind Rowland. Thanks for all that, but as
>>>> usual you've ignored my question! Here it is again, stated as
>>>> simply as I can make it. "What do YOU believe about Hell?" Or
>>>> should we just assume that despite all your qualifications,
>>>> preaching, lectures, books, and your wonderful website with it's
>>>> zillions of views, you really have absolutely no idea what you
>>>> believe?
>>>
>>> Pete, I would have thought, after all the scrutiny you've given my
>>> theology over the years, you'd know...
>>>
>>> I shouldn't do this, because as a teacher I'm violating the basic
>>> ethic of teaching adults (teach people how to think, not what to
>>> think)... but here's a clue:
>>>
>>> I don't belong in categories 1 or 4 - and never have... despite the
>>> assertions of some posters here who claim to know more definitively
>>> what I believe than I do :-)
>>>
>>> Now... avaguess :-)!
>>
>> What is wrong with you? why can't you answer simple questions? are we
>> supposed to think that all you want to do is POSE questions for ppl
>> or others to answer? do you consider that to a be a suitable role for
>> a minister of religion?
>>
> Yes, if that minister is a follower of Jesus and his didactic method...
>
Well whatever.. The fact remains that you can't tell me what you believe
about Hell, and just about anything else I've asked about the christian
faith, so that leaves me only with the conclusion that you simply don't
know what you truly believe, and everything I've seen of you confirms
that.
--
rgds,
Pete
=====
http://pw352.blogspot.com/
'I'm not young enough to know everything' -Oscar Wilde
|
