In news:48229c25$0$17505$afc38c87@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Croucher** <rccroucher@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> typed:
> lynx wrote:
>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>
>>> lynx wrote:
>>>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From: Athanasius <dcn_athanas...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>>> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:14:36 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>> Local: Wed, Apr 30 2008 12:14 pm
>>>>> Subject: Re: The Wall
>>>>> <>
>>>>>> I do not think that Rowland believes in "Hell" as a place of
>>>>>> pain and
>>>>> separation. Nor do I think Rowland believes any humans go to such
>>>>> a "hell" anyway. So in his mind he is not leading anyone there,
>>>>> you see.
>>>>>
>>>>> ***
>>>>>
>>>>> I read this today, and I can't think of a better response:
>>>>>
>>>>> Questioner, to Billy Graham on his last visit to Harvard:
>>>>>
>>>>> 'Since Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man
>>>>> cometh to the Father but by me" doesn't that mean people from
>>>>> other religions - Jews and the rest - are going to hell?'
>>>>>
>>>>> Billy replied,'I'm sure glad God is the judge of people's hearts
>>>>> and not me! And I trust God to decide those questions justly and
>>>>> mercifully.'
>>>>>
>>>>> The student was disappointed and pressed further, 'Well, what do
>>>>> you think God will decide?'
>>>>>
>>>>> Graham demurred, 'Well, God doesn't really ask my advice on those
>>>>> matters.'
>>>>
>>>> As usual you have not addressed the issue, which is.. (a) whether
>>>> YOU believe in Hell 'as a place of pain and separation' from God.
>>>> ie. the existence and purpose of it... and.. (b) whether YOU
>>>> believe ANY 'humans go to such a "hell" anyway'. C'mon Rowland-
>>>> speak up! For someone who is a Baptist minister with several
>>>> theological qualifications, written umpteen books, given umpteen
>>>> lectures, and has a website with zillions of views, those two
>>>> simple questions should not be too hard.
>>>
>>> Ah... the quest for simple questions and simple answers!
>>
>> Simple answers are usually the most accurate. And if truth is the
>> issue, then answers can only be RIGHT or WRONG regardless of how much
>> 'explanation' is involved.
>>
>>> In another thread here somewhere the issue of Jesus speaking in
>>> parables was raised. Jesus in the gospels only anwered directly
>>> three questions he was asked. Why was that? 'Cos like any good
>>> teacher he wanted his students to think through their own
>>> faith-responses. Their faith would be child-like, not childish...
>>>
>>> Anyway:
>>>
>>> In my experience there are four broad views held by people who claim
>>> to be Christians about hell. The whole subject is problematical,
>>> particularly for the second and third groups. The first and fourth
>>> categories have more clear-cut positions.
>>>
>>> But first, here's one statement of the problem, in the preface to
>>> Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion chapter 8: 'What's wrong with
>>> religion? Why be so hostile?' (p. 279).
>>>
>>> "Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible
>>> man - living in the sky - who watches everything you do, every
>>> minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of
>>> ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these
>>> ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and
>>> burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and
>>> suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til
>>> the end of time... But he loves you!" (George Carlin).
>>>
>>> 1. Some *sectarians* I've met actually believe that only they - or
>>> perhaps one or two other groups very much like them - will go to
>>> heaven. The majority of the human race will suffer eternal torment -
>>> including babies, mad people, and those who've never heard of
>>> Christ. These people preach about hell 'without tears in their
>>> voice', and even with hatred, seeming to give the impression
>>> they're happy these other infidels - including many who call
>>> themselves Christians, but are apostate - will spend eternity in
>>> hell, without reprieve. 2. The second group - *conservative* or
>>> evangelical Christians -
>>> believe the majority of the human race is destined for hell, but may
>>> take seriously the Romans 2:15 suggestion that some who follow the
>>> law ('written on their hearts/conscience') will 'perhaps be
>>> excused' on the day of judgment - together with young children, mad
>>> people, and maybe others totally ignorant of the Christian gospel.
>>> There is another significant sub-group who believe in some form of
>>> 'conditional immortality' or 'annihilationism': the souls of those
>>> who resist God actually 'perish', cease to exist in the after-life.
>>> My hunch is that this doctrine is partly driven by the horrible
>>> notion of everlasting torment or torture being incompatible with
>>> the will of a loving God. John Stott belongs there somewhere.
>>>
>>> 3. The third group - I'll call them *progressive* Christians -
>>> believe that yes, there is a hell, but we mustn't take literalistic
>>> black and white (or cold/hot) categories of existence into the
>>> spirit-world. Hell and heaven are an eternal experiencing of the
>>> attitudes we've cultivated in this life. Richard Rohr ('Things
>>> Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality') seems to hold a view roughly
>>> like this. 4. *Universalists* believe God's love and grace can't be
>>> finally
>>> conquered by unbelief or rebellion. All will be saved. 'As in Adam
>>> all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive' (1 Corinthians
>>> 15:22) is their text. Every human dies; every human is loved
>>> unconditionally by God and will experience bliss forever. (However,
>>> moving to an 'ultra-liberal' extreme, I know a Christian minister
>>> who doesn't believe in the after-life; I know another who affirms
>>> reincarnation). Now, they're very broad categories, and there are
>>> more
>>> sub-categories within each than I've mentioned.
>>>
>>> But that'll do for now... I'll be back when my ISP fixes its
>>> newsgroup server and fewer people demand my time with problems!!!
>>
>> LOL! You are one of a kind Rowland. Thanks for all that, but as usual
>> you've ignored my question! Here it is again, stated as simply as I
>> can make it. "What do YOU believe about Hell?" Or should we just
>> assume that despite all your qualifications, preaching, lectures,
>> books, and your wonderful website with it's zillions of views, you
>> really have absolutely no idea what you believe?
>
> Pete, I would have thought, after all the scrutiny you've given my
> theology over the years, you'd know...
>
> I shouldn't do this, because as a teacher I'm violating the basic
> ethic of teaching adults (teach people how to think, not what to
> think)... but here's a clue:
>
> I don't belong in categories 1 or 4 - and never have... despite the
> assertions of some posters here who claim to know more definitively
> what I believe than I do :-)
>
> Now... avaguess :-)!
Mr. Croucher wants to keep this a secret. ROTFL!
--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de
:::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm
:::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net
:::::::
::::::: http://alpha.org/default.asp
:::::::
|
