lynx wrote:
> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>
>> lynx wrote:
>>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>>
>>>> lynx wrote:
>>>>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Athanasius <dcn_athanas...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>>>> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:14:36 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>> Local: Wed, Apr 30 2008 12:14 pm
>>>>>> Subject: Re: The Wall
>>>>>> <>
>>>>>> > I do not think that Rowland believes in "Hell" as a place of
>>>>>> pain and
>>>>>> separation. Nor do I think Rowland believes any humans go to such a
>>>>>> "hell" anyway. So in his mind he is not leading anyone there, you
>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I read this today, and I can't think of a better response:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Questioner, to Billy Graham on his last visit to Harvard:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'Since Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man
>>>>>> cometh to the Father but by me" doesn't that mean people from
>>>>>> other religions - Jews and the rest - are going to hell?'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Billy replied,'I'm sure glad God is the judge of people's hearts
>>>>>> and not me! And I trust God to decide those questions justly and
>>>>>> mercifully.'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The student was disappointed and pressed further, 'Well, what do
>>>>>> you think God will decide?'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Graham demurred, 'Well, God doesn't really ask my advice on those
>>>>>> matters.'
>>>>>
>>>>> As usual you have not addressed the issue, which is.. (a) whether
>>>>> YOU believe in Hell 'as a place of pain and separation' from God.
>>>>> ie. the existence and purpose of it... and.. (b) whether YOU
>>>>> believe ANY 'humans go to such a "hell" anyway'. C'mon Rowland-
>>>>> speak up! For someone who is a Baptist minister with several
>>>>> theological qualifications, written umpteen books, given umpteen
>>>>> lectures, and has a website with zillions of views, those two
>>>>> simple questions should not be too hard.
>>>>
>>>> Ah... the quest for simple questions and simple answers!
>>>
>>> Simple answers are usually the most accurate. And if truth is the
>>> issue, then answers can only be RIGHT or WRONG regardless of how much
>>> 'explanation' is involved.
>>>
>>>> In another thread here somewhere the issue of Jesus speaking in
>>>> parables was raised. Jesus in the gospels only anwered directly
>>>> three questions he was asked. Why was that? 'Cos like any good
>>>> teacher he wanted his students to think through their own
>>>> faith-responses. Their faith would be child-like, not childish...
>>>>
>>>> Anyway:
>>>>
>>>> In my experience there are four broad views held by people who claim
>>>> to be Christians about hell. The whole subject is problematical,
>>>> particularly for the second and third groups. The first and fourth
>>>> categories have more clear-cut positions.
>>>>
>>>> But first, here's one statement of the problem, in the preface to
>>>> Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion chapter 8: 'What's wrong with
>>>> religion? Why be so hostile?' (p. 279).
>>>>
>>>> "Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible
>>>> man - living in the sky - who watches everything you do, every
>>>> minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten
>>>> things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten
>>>> things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning
>>>> and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer
>>>> and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end
>>>> of time... But he loves you!" (George Carlin).
>>>>
>>>> 1. Some *sectarians* I've met actually believe that only they - or
>>>> perhaps one or two other groups very much like them - will go to
>>>> heaven. The majority of the human race will suffer eternal torment -
>>>> including babies, mad people, and those who've never heard of
>>>> Christ. These people preach about hell 'without tears in their
>>>> voice', and even with hatred, seeming to give the impression they're
>>>> happy these other infidels - including many who call themselves
>>>> Christians, but are apostate - will spend eternity in hell, without
>>>> reprieve.
>>>>
>>>> 2. The second group - *conservative* or evangelical Christians -
>>>> believe the majority of the human race is destined for hell, but may
>>>> take seriously the Romans 2:15 suggestion that some who follow the
>>>> law ('written on their hearts/conscience') will 'perhaps be excused'
>>>> on the day of judgment - together with young children, mad people,
>>>> and maybe others totally ignorant of the Christian gospel. There is
>>>> another significant sub-group who believe in some form of
>>>> 'conditional immortality' or 'annihilationism': the souls of those
>>>> who resist God actually 'perish', cease to exist in the after-life.
>>>> My hunch is that this doctrine is partly driven by the horrible
>>>> notion of everlasting torment or torture being incompatible with the
>>>> will of a loving God. John Stott belongs there somewhere.
>>>>
>>>> 3. The third group - I'll call them *progressive* Christians -
>>>> believe that yes, there is a hell, but we mustn't take literalistic
>>>> black and white (or cold/hot) categories of existence into the
>>>> spirit-world. Hell and heaven are an eternal experiencing of the
>>>> attitudes we've cultivated in this life. Richard Rohr ('Things
>>>> Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality') seems to hold a view roughly
>>>> like this.
>>>>
>>>> 4. *Universalists* believe God's love and grace can't be finally
>>>> conquered by unbelief or rebellion. All will be saved. 'As in Adam
>>>> all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive' (1 Corinthians 15:22)
>>>> is their text. Every human dies; every human is loved
>>>> unconditionally by God and will experience bliss forever. (However,
>>>> moving to an 'ultra-liberal' extreme, I know a Christian minister
>>>> who doesn't believe in the after-life; I know another who affirms
>>>> reincarnation).
>>>>
>>>> Now, they're very broad categories, and there are more
>>>> sub-categories within each than I've mentioned.
>>>>
>>>> But that'll do for now... I'll be back when my ISP fixes its
>>>> newsgroup server and fewer people demand my time with problems!!!
>>>
>>> LOL! You are one of a kind Rowland. Thanks for all that, but as usual
>>> you've ignored my question! Here it is again, stated as simply as I
>>> can make it. "What do YOU believe about Hell?" Or should we just
>>> assume that despite all your qualifications, preaching, lectures,
>>> books, and your wonderful website with it's zillions of views, you
>>> really have absolutely no idea what you believe?
>>
>> Pete, I would have thought, after all the scrutiny you've given my
>> theology over the years, you'd know...
>>
>> I shouldn't do this, because as a teacher I'm violating the basic
>> ethic of teaching adults (teach people how to think, not what to
>> think)... but here's a clue:
>>
>> I don't belong in categories 1 or 4 - and never have... despite the
>> assertions of some posters here who claim to know more definitively
>> what I believe than I do :-)
>>
>> Now... avaguess :-)!
>
> What is wrong with you? why can't you answer simple questions? are we
> supposed to think that all you want to do is POSE questions for ppl or
> others to answer? do you consider that to a be a suitable role for a
> minister of religion?
>
Yes, if that minister is a follower of Jesus and his didactic method...
--
Shalom/Salaam/Pax! Rowland Croucher
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/
(20,000 articles 4000 humor)
Blogs - http://rowlandsblogs.blogspot.com/
Justice for Dawn Rowan - http://dawnrowansaga.blogspot.com/
Funny Jokes and Pics - http://funnyjokesnpics.blogspot.com/
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