lynx wrote:
> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>
>> lynx wrote:
>>> **Rowland Croucher** wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: Athanasius <dcn_athanas...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:14:36 -0700 (PDT)
>>>> Local: Wed, Apr 30 2008 12:14 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: The Wall
>>>> <>
>>>> > I do not think that Rowland believes in "Hell" as a place of pain
and
>>>> separation. Nor do I think Rowland believes any humans go to such a
>>>> "hell" anyway. So in his mind he is not leading anyone there, you
>>>> see.
>>>>
>>>> ***
>>>>
>>>> I read this today, and I can't think of a better response:
>>>>
>>>> Questioner, to Billy Graham on his last visit to Harvard:
>>>>
>>>> 'Since Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man
>>>> cometh to the Father but by me" doesn't that mean people from other
>>>> religions - Jews and the rest - are going to hell?'
>>>>
>>>> Billy replied,'I'm sure glad God is the judge of people's hearts and
>>>> not me! And I trust God to decide those questions justly and
>>>> mercifully.'
>>>>
>>>> The student was disappointed and pressed further, 'Well, what do you
>>>> think God will decide?'
>>>>
>>>> Graham demurred, 'Well, God doesn't really ask my advice on those
>>>> matters.'
>>>
>>> As usual you have not addressed the issue, which is.. (a) whether YOU
>>> believe in Hell 'as a place of pain and separation' from God. ie. the
>>> existence and purpose of it... and.. (b) whether YOU believe ANY
>>> 'humans go to such a "hell" anyway'. C'mon Rowland- speak up! For
>>> someone who is a Baptist minister with several theological
>>> qualifications, written umpteen books, given umpteen lectures, and
>>> has a website with zillions of views, those two simple questions
>>> should not be too hard.
>>
>> Ah... the quest for simple questions and simple answers!
>
> Simple answers are usually the most accurate. And if truth is the issue,
> then answers can only be RIGHT or WRONG regardless of how much
> 'explanation' is involved.
>
>> In another thread here somewhere the issue of Jesus speaking in
>> parables was raised. Jesus in the gospels only anwered directly three
>> questions he was asked. Why was that? 'Cos like any good teacher he
>> wanted his students to think through their own faith-responses. Their
>> faith would be child-like, not childish...
>>
>> Anyway:
>>
>> In my experience there are four broad views held by people who claim
>> to be Christians about hell. The whole subject is problematical,
>> particularly for the second and third groups. The first and fourth
>> categories have more clear-cut positions.
>>
>> But first, here's one statement of the problem, in the preface to
>> Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion chapter 8: 'What's wrong with
>> religion? Why be so hostile?' (p. 279).
>>
>> "Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man
>> - living in the sky - who watches everything you do, every minute of
>> every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he
>> does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has
>> a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and
>> anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke
>> and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time... But he
>> loves you!" (George Carlin).
>>
>> 1. Some *sectarians* I've met actually believe that only they - or
>> perhaps one or two other groups very much like them - will go to
>> heaven. The majority of the human race will suffer eternal torment -
>> including babies, mad people, and those who've never heard of Christ.
>> These people preach about hell 'without tears in their voice', and
>> even with hatred, seeming to give the impression they're happy these
>> other infidels - including many who call themselves Christians, but
>> are apostate - will spend eternity in hell, without reprieve.
>>
>> 2. The second group - *conservative* or evangelical Christians -
>> believe the majority of the human race is destined for hell, but may
>> take seriously the Romans 2:15 suggestion that some who follow the law
>> ('written on their hearts/conscience') will 'perhaps be excused' on
>> the day of judgment - together with young children, mad people, and
>> maybe others totally ignorant of the Christian gospel. There is
>> another significant sub-group who believe in some form of 'conditional
>> immortality' or 'annihilationism': the souls of those who resist God
>> actually 'perish', cease to exist in the after-life. My hunch is that
>> this doctrine is partly driven by the horrible notion of everlasting
>> torment or torture being incompatible with the will of a loving God.
>> John Stott belongs there somewhere.
>>
>> 3. The third group - I'll call them *progressive* Christians - believe
>> that yes, there is a hell, but we mustn't take literalistic black and
>> white (or cold/hot) categories of existence into the spirit-world.
>> Hell and heaven are an eternal experiencing of the attitudes we've
>> cultivated in this life. Richard Rohr ('Things Hidden: Scripture as
>> Spirituality') seems to hold a view roughly like this.
>>
>> 4. *Universalists* believe God's love and grace can't be finally
>> conquered by unbelief or rebellion. All will be saved. 'As in Adam all
>> die, so in Christ shall all be made alive' (1 Corinthians 15:22) is
>> their text. Every human dies; every human is loved unconditionally by
>> God and will experience bliss forever. (However, moving to an
>> 'ultra-liberal' extreme, I know a Christian minister who doesn't
>> believe in the after-life; I know another who affirms reincarnation).
>>
>> Now, they're very broad categories, and there are more sub-categories
>> within each than I've mentioned.
>>
>> But that'll do for now... I'll be back when my ISP fixes its newsgroup
>> server and fewer people demand my time with problems!!!
>
> LOL! You are one of a kind Rowland. Thanks for all that, but as usual
> you've ignored my question! Here it is again, stated as simply as I can
> make it. "What do YOU believe about Hell?" Or should we just assume that
> despite all your qualifications, preaching, lectures, books, and your
> wonderful website with it's zillions of views, you really have
> absolutely no idea what you believe?
Pete, I would have thought, after all the scrutiny you've given my
theology over the years, you'd know...
I shouldn't do this, because as a teacher I'm violating the basic ethic
of teaching adults (teach people how to think, not what to think)... but
here's a clue:
I don't belong in categories 1 or 4 - and never have... despite the
assertions of some posters here who claim to know more definitively what
I believe than I do :-)
Now... avaguess :-)!
--
Shalom/Salaam/Pax! Rowland Croucher
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/
(20,000 articles 4000 humor)
Blogs - http://rowlandsblogs.blogspot.com/
Justice for Dawn Rowan - http://dawnrowansaga.blogspot.com/
Funny Jokes and Pics - http://funnyjokesnpics.blogspot.com/
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