Re: Hell II (Was: Rational thought etc.)

"Sean McHugh" wrote:

> For instance, mankind had to stop
> believing that thunder was the gods getting angry.

Though we still celebrerate Thor every Thursday.


> Hell, especially
> the Middle Ages version that I was originally taught, is simply
> untenable. It is less credible than what one, as a child, was told
> about Santa Claus coming down the chimney.

Most of our ideas about hell come from Matthew's gospel and from there 
Dante's "Divine Comedy" and Milton's "Paradise Lost".  Milton particularly

has a much more "enjoyable" Satan than God.  Without these books we would 
have no idea about Hell.


> No, Hell has been a dynamic construct and as such is _not_ essential.

Hell was a clergy construct to keep the plebs under control with threats
of 
torment unless we obeyed them.


> When I began school we were taught about Hell (by enthusiastic nuns)
> as a fiery pit where we would sizzle and fry for eternity if we missed
> going to church on a Sunday. By the time I left school, Hell was
> hardly mentioned and when it was, it was spoken of as a place where
> one is deprived of God. That only became official in 1999:

We Protestants heard that much earlier but fundamentalists are still 
preaching Hellfire in some churches.


> Thirdly, those brandi****ng Hell tend to pontificate and try to instil
> fear into their subjects. It is a means by which they and the Church
> seek to exert power. For a long time it worked as an effective device
> to gain control the people and their money. As such it had all the
> earmarks of a scam, if not extortion.

Yep!


> Like it or not, Christianity is an evolving thing. The Jews didn't
> have Hell.

They had Sheol - the Shadowland of the dead.


> The
> original 'Christian' Church would better be described as Messianic
> Jewish. That was James' Jerusalem Church which held the Apostles. It
> appears to have have not only retained Jewish beliefs and wor****p, but
> practised them with great intensity.

One cannot understand original Christianity OR Jesus of Nazareth without 
this point of view.  Jesus of Nazareth was profoundly JEWISH.


> Paul provided the next stage and
> can arguably be regarded as the founder of Christianity.

The REAL books that paul wrote demonstrate that paul was also profoundly 
JEWISH and would not recognise modern Christianity as anything remortely 
connected to his Messianic Judaism.

Authentic books of Paul are wrirtten 50 - 60 CE:
- 1 Thessalonians (Paul)
- Philippians (Paul)
- Galatians (Paul)
- 1 Corinthians (Paul)
- 2 Corinthians (Paul)
- Romans (Paul)
- Philemon (Paul)

> He never mentioned Hell either. It is unlikely it was part of his
> theology.

.... because Paul was JEWISH.


> It wasn't till we get to the later written Gospels that we hear the
first
> mention of Hell.

Influenced by Aristotle's misunderstanding of Plato and the Roman Empire's

pantheon of gods.


> The Church provided their 'television' and news re****ts.

.... especially in stained glass windows, frescos, paintings and
sculptures.


> If the churches returned to issuing such fantastic nonsense,
> it would probably be to their peril.

Except if presented with pop "Jesus Jingles" and brainwa****ng ... like 
Hill$ong .....

"This disco used to be a cute cathedral." - Steve Taylor

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"This Disco (Used To Be A Cute Cathedral)" - Steve Taylor

Sunday needs a pick-me-up?
Here's your chance
Do you get tired of the same old square dance?

Allemande right now
All join hands
Do-si-do to the promised boogieland

Got no need for altar calls
Sold the altar for the mirror balls
Do you shuffle? Do you twist?
'Cause with a hot hits playlist, now we say

This disco used to be a cute cathedral
Where the chosen cha-cha every day of the year
This disco used to be a cute cathedral
Where we only play the stuff you're wanting to hear

Mickey does the two-step
One, Two, Swing
All the little church mice doing their thing

Boppin' in the belltower
Rumba to the right
Knock knock, who's there? Get me out of this limelight

So, you want to defect?
Officer, what did you expect?
Got no rhythm, got no dough
He said, "Listen, Bozo, don't you know"

This disco used to be a cute cathedral
Where the chosen cha-cha every day of the week
This disco used to be a cute cathedral
But we got no room if you ain't gonna be chic

Sell your holy habitats
This ****p's been deserted by sinking rats
The exclusive place to go
It's where the pious pogo, don't you know

This disco used to be a cute cathedral
Where the chosen cha-cha every day of the year
This disco used to be a cute cathedral
Where we only play the stuff you're wanting to hear

This disco used to be a cute cathedral
Where the chosen cha-cha every day of the week
This disco used to be a cute cathedral
But we got no room if you ain't gonna be chic

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

About The Song
From Post-Fritz Release Interview, Q2(?) 1985:
  I'm down in New York city, and there's this disco that used to be a 
church, called "The Limelight." ... They were showing Ten Commandments on 
the video screens and stuff.

  We walk into the main sanctuary part, go up the stairs to the 
balcony--there's like two balconies--and the floor of this big church--I 
mean, it must have been able to seat like a thousand people--is literally 
jammed with probably 1,500 people dancing, and there's a video screen 
showing the latest Madonna sleaze on the video and stuff like that. So I'm

looking down at this--scratch the Madonna sleaze--my mind starts drifting,
I 
imagine that this is Sunday evening and the deacons have devised this as a

way of getting new member****p, right? [laughter]

  So it's a very satirical song, but the point is--especially like in 
California where I'm from you've got this country-club Christianity 
springing up, where Christianity is supposed to appeal to the beautiful 
people, and we try to get the right elements in our churches--the elements

that are going to give money and everything like that. That's not the 
church's mission. Jesus talked about coming to heal the sick, not those
who 
are well, and so it's essentially a song against this idea of country-club

Christianity.

From Clone Club News Flash Winter 1986, Winter 1986:
  ... My on-the-scene investigation began with the required ritual of 
waiting with the anxious crowd outside the entrance until a neo-Nazi
doorman 
decided my shoes wouldn't scuff up the dance floor. He then escorted my
two 
stout-hearted friends and me through the vestibule, past rows of authentic

looking sarcophagi (I had to look that word up, too) to the ca****er
ringing 
up fifteen dollar admissions underneath a large cross.

  ....

  It seemed an appropriate metaphor to illustrate "country club 
Christianity".

  My home state of California seems to lead the pack in establi****ng
"places 
of wor****p" where the beautiful people congregate to sprinkle a little 
Christianity on top of their beautiful lifestyles. Most of us (myself 
included) are guilty of wi****ng that Christianity were more fa****onable. 
(That's why we tend to flaunt "born-again celebrities" as if they somehow 
made Jesus more credible.)

  The balance is being lost. The Apostle Paul's example of becoming "all 
things to all men" (in order to reach across cultural barriers) is being 
twisted into a mandate to dilute the Gospel into a more palatable form,
and 
hopefully draw a trendier, more affluent flock.

  Jesus said, "I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to 
repentance." "This Disco" is just another reminder that when the Church 
loses that mission, it loses its reason for existing.

From Who Does Not Want To Be a Clone?, Campus Life, January 1987:
  This song was inspired by moving to California, where things often
revolve 
around buzz words, demographics, trends, going-for-the-latest-thing. I
think 
the church out here many times has tended to reflect that--taking the film

company approach to marketing Jesus to the right people. But he didn't
come 
to reach those who care only about being upwardly mobile or feel they have

no need of a doctor. He came for those who know they need help, those who 
know they are sick. ...

  from http://www.sockheaven.net/discography/taylor/fritz/01.html#about
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-- 
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/

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http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall

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http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian 
fundamentalism.

PASTOR DALE K WHANGKE
http://dalekwhangke.blogspot.com/
Wyrst Pentacostal Church