On May 1, 7:29 am, Athanasius <dcn_athanas...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> Lawrence wrote:
> > Because it is God.. not the Orthodox, Holy Tradition or Scripture..
> > that saves people..
>
> > Obvious, innit ?
>
> Obvious you separate God from His Church. His Church does not make the
> same mistake.
God is immanent. The Church is not.
Since you seek to follow Scripture over and above following God,
Scripture talks of a new heaven and a new earth, does it not ? Once
those things come, there is no need for the Church to exist as an
institution.
God existed before humanity knew of such a thing as a Church, let
alone an institution called Coptic Orthodoxy.
God will likewise exist after the need to meet fellow believers has
ended. The fact His followers will also exist after the need to meet
such believers this side of Parousia has ended also seems to escape
your attention.
God: Immanent, infinite: score 1.
Church as institution: finite, limited: score 0.
The Church does not save people. Scripture, which you say you uphold
as part of Holy Tradition, talks of God saving people alone.. and Him
being damn jealous that nobody else takes that claim from Him (e.g.
what happened with Saul and the battle where he claimed he was saving
things to offer up in Temple worship to God). If you think the Church
saves people, the entire Scripture about no-one being able to boast of
what they've done before God is annuled.
And then there's Scripture. Finite and incomplete. How is Scripture
equivalent to God when all it does is talk of Him ? Does this mean God
gets jealous every time someone claims Scripture can save peopl
> > The more you place value in the transient values of institutions, the
> > more you lose the capacity to love your neighbour outside those
> > institutions as conformity/peer pressure to be part of the institution
> > ends up being more important than love or life to those outside the
> > Church as you know it. Jesus said the Temple would be destroyed. The
> > Orthodox is just another form of Temple worship, like every other
> > institution. The people inside and outside the institution matter to
> > God, regardless of whatever light or darkness they are going through.
>
> Christ stated His Church will remain forever, so another wrong
> assumption about it being transient.
Christ didn't state that the Church had to be Coptic Orthodox,
Orthodox or any other denomination.
By stating what you have, your tell is that you place more value in
being Orthodox than in actually loving people outside of Woorim.
> Therefore any argument based on the misconception will be flawed.
There is no misconception. Remember, we're talking about your stance
regarding Orthodoxy here, based on your own words:
"Indeed, sometimes some people think that I will back down from the
Orthodox position. Why they think I would do that escapes me."
Orthodoxy does not automatically equal Christ's Church (or haven't you
figured that out yet?)
> > What did St Paul say wouldn't pass away ? Love. It never fails. Never
> > gives up. Remains faithful.
>
> Yep. The same St Paul rebuked homosexuality, liars, adultery and
> heretical false religion, :-)
Protestants being one of those false religions, right ?
> Love never fails.
That's right. Unlike the institutional church.. which fails regulary
and people shove the misdemeanours under the carpet in order to put on
a facade of truth, justice and holiness.
> Love does not keep silent -when genuine people are inquiring
Oy! You're rewriting Scripture.. and you say you value it. Isn't that
a tad.. well.. hypocritical of you ?
> Love rebukes when mockers -believe- they have a point.
Oy! You're rewriting Scripture.. and you say you value it. Isn't that
a tad.. well.. hypocritical of you ?
> Sometime love remains silent when it is faced with evil (eg: Jesus
Christ before herod).
But you have not remained silent. You have betrayed the overflow of
your heart, namely:
"Indeed, sometimes some people think that I will back down from the
Orthodox position. Why they think I would do that escapes me."
Therefore.. what does that tell the world about you?
> We remember that our Lord Jesus was the absolute embodiment of God's
> love, yet He Himself rebuked religious fakery and pride emersed in its
> ego. Those who had done so had two choices, to repent or to attack.
> They attacked with lies and misquoting Him..."He said He would destroy
> this temple...."
and the temple never equalled Coptic Orthodoxy, Orthodoxy or any other
flavour of Christian as we know it, right ?
Yet you defend Orthodoxy over and above having God save people outside
of it. Why ???
> Christ has taught His apostles and Church how to love. I am sorry that
> you have never yet experienced that Lawrence.
Ah.. the dissonance is getting through. You've gone the subtle "You're
not a Christian" route.
You believe yourself a Christian, right ? Why then do you not love
those around you instead of assuming they are not Christians because
they can see through the facade of your institutional behaviour.?
> There is still time though.
It's still the same "Turn or burn" speil, just wrapped up in the
Orthodox facade, from what I can see. The language may change due to
Orthodoxy being different than Protestantism, but the same themes and
tells remain there.
Don't you think it's a tad immature on your part to resort to such a
speil in order to justify yourself before God and men?
After all.. if the best you've got is to threaten people, you really
don't have that much validity and sound reason backing you up
(otherwise we would have seen it by now in order to win the hearts and
minds of men).
Remember, your Scriptures say that the Holy Spirit will lead you into
truth, right ? Why then cannot you freely give away the truth you have
in order for God to save people.. instead of resorting to subtle
threats about me "never" experiencing God or love or highlighting that
time is passing on?
lawrence
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