On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:31:45 GMT, lynx <none@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>Barry OGrady wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:06:34 GMT, Chris Bell <cbell@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Mark T wrote:
>>>
>>>> "lynx" <none@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <re-organised for logical purposes>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hey Bazz.. let's see if Morkie can answer your questions.
>>>>>
>>>> I'll have a try.
>>>>
>>> *lots of good stuff snipped - well answered Mark!*
>>>
>>
>> Mark's post is not on my ISP's news server or on Google and I would
>> like to read it. Could someone please quote it in full?
>>
>
>no prob...
Thanks.
><re-organised for logical purposes>
>
>
>> > Hey Bazz.. let's see if Morkie can answer your questions.
>>
>
>I'll have a try.
>
>
>> > He thinks knows everything about God
>>
>
>Do I? Nobody told me. Any finite talk about an infinite God is next to
>nothing.
Mark knows God is infinite.
>>> >> In your Gods world; Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic
Eruptions,
>>> >> Wars, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases, serious body
>>> >> malfunctions and starvation exist that torture both man and
animals.
>>>
>....
>
>>> >> If an all powerful god created this, why did he make so many
horrible >>
>>> >> mistakes and create this huge multitude of imperfections, pain and
>>> >> suffering???
>>>
>......
>
>>> >> Logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any omnipotent
gods;
>>> >> Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able?
>>> >> Then he is not omnipotent.
>>> >> Is he able, but not willing?
>>> >> Then he is malevolent.
>>> >> Is he both able and willing?
>>> >> Then where does evil come from?
>>> >> Is he neither able nor willing?
>>> >> Then why call him a god?
>>>
>
>Therein is the problem of Epicurus that I keep posing. No-one has
answered
>the problem but I think Rabbi Harold Kushner has a good contribution to
the
>solution ....
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>from Samantha Trenoweth "The Future of God" (Millenium Books 1995)
>"This is the crucial religious question," he explained earlier this
evening.
>"When it is left unanswered, it festers the soul, it corrupts faith, it
>causes people to leave faith. When it is answered badly, it breeds
cynicism
>and mistrust. When it works, when people are anble to find consolation
and
>solace in the teachings of their religion, at a time when they need it
the
>most, then that religion will be a source of sustenance for the rest of
>their lives. How shall we understand the sufferings of good people?
There
>is no more im****tant question we can ask." p. 141
>
>"... when we ask this question, we discover that most of the answers
we're
>given simply do not work. ... They would say to me, 'God is putting your
>family to this test because you're so strong in your faith and you can
>handle it. You'll be an inspiration to others.' All I could think of
was, I
>wish I was less religious. Let God test somebody else and give us a
healthy
>child.' People said, 'God is doing this to you so you become a more
>sensitive person and write this book which will help thousands of people
>afterwards.' I imagined the response if a defence attorney for a human
>murder was to get up in court and say , 'Look at all the good my client
has
>accomplished by killing that child. All over the country, people are
much
>more vigilant about where their children go when they leave the house and
>all over this continent, people are grateful that their child is alive
and
>well because my client hasn't got his hands on them.' "They would never
be
>taken seriously in a court of law. Why do we say the same thing about
God?
>We say that God would torture and kill an innocent person so that other
>people will grow spiritually as a result. I have never accepted the idea
>that God allows retarded children to be born so that the woman next door
>will realise how lucky she is that her kids are normal. Why does God
strike
>somebody blind or crippled? So we can have the op****tunity to drop a coin
in
>their tin cup as they beg? I cannot take seriously a God who would choose
>such things. ... I realized why all the conventional religious answers
>didn't comfort me. You know why? Becauise they weren't supposed to.
They
>were not intended to make me feel better. They were intended to defend
and
>justify God." pp. 142 -143
>
>"The conclusion I came to ... was to challenge ... that everything that
>happens in this world, God wants to happen." ... Harold Kushner
>jettisoned his belief in an all-powerful God." pp 146 -147
>
>She said to him, "Pastor, if one more person tells me it was God's will,
I'm
>going to scream. Why are they teaching me to hate God?" ... "We teach
>people either to hate themselves for deserving it or to hate God for
doing
>it to them when they don't deserve it." .... "I would rather affirm God's
>goodness," he says, "while compromising his power. I would rather believe
in
>a God who sees things happening that he does not want to happen but
cannot
>stop them. I think goodness is of more religious value than power."
Around
>this central tenet, he rebuilt his faith. According to Rabbi Kushner,
the
>primary reason why bad things happen to good people is that laws of
nature
>do not differentiate between a good person and a bad one. p. 147
>
>.... a passage in the Talmud that he paraphrases as follows: "If a man
steals
>seeds from his neighbour and plants them, justice would require that
those
>seeds do not germinate. Why should that man profit from his theft?
However,
>nature is not just and stolen seeds grow." Life is full of such
instances.
>Nature is amoral, he insits, and God does not interfere with laws of
nature.
>.... the ability to know the difference between right and wrong. Human
>beings habve that ability. Falling rocks and viruses don't. ... That's
the
>first source of suffering and unfairness that God canot
>prevent." ... Dorothy Soell ... German Lutheran theologian ... "Where
was
>God at Auschwitz?" Her answer is that God was at the side of the
victims,
>suffering and grieving with them, not on the side of the murderers. p.
148
>
>"... Instead of raising our hands to heaven and saying, 'God, why do you
let
>these things happen" we applied our God-given intelligence to the
problem,
>until we solved it, just as we will one day solve the problem of cancer
and
>AIDS and heart disease." p. 150
>
>"Why do good people suffer in God's world?" he asks again. "The answer
is,
>I don't know why and if I knew why, I wouldn't tell you because, if I
told
>you , I'd be making the same mistake that all thgose people made with me
so
>many years ago - taking something that fundamentally doesn't make sense
and
>trying to make sense of it. ..." p. 155'
>
>"... Jews don't actually pray for, Jews pray to. Prayer does not mean
>asking God to do something. Prayer, in Judaism, means askinmg God to be
>with you. .." p. 158
>
>"... Ultimately the question is not, 'Why does God permit this?' ... The
>real question is, 'From where does my help come? How will I manage to
get
>through this?' The psalmist's answer, it seems to me, must be our answer
as
>well: 'My help comes from the Lord, maker of heaven and earth.'" p. 159
Its obvious there is no God that is both good and powerful but people like
Mark can't accept there are no good God so they must believe there is a
weak God.
>>> >> The objective evidence is that gods did not create man but quite
the
>>> >> opposite; man created gods!
>>>
>
>You've been listening to too much of Jethro Tull's "Aqualung"
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>In the beginning Man created God
>and in the image of Man
>created he him.
>
>(Linear notes)
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>but forgot the last song ....
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Wind Up
>......
>So I asked this God a question
>and by way of firm reply,
>He said -- I'm not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays.
>So to my old headmaster (and to anyone who cares):
>before I'm through I'd like to say my prayers --
>I don't believe you:
>you had the whole damn thing all wrong --
>He's not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays.
>.....
>I'd rather look around me -- compose a better song
>`cos that's the honest measure of my worth.
>In your pomp and all your glory you're a poorer man than me,
>as you lick the boots of death born out of fear.
>I don't believe you:
>you had the whole damn thing all wrong --
>He's not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays.
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark can't accept the fact that all gods are man made.
>>> >> Where is ANY objective verifiable evidence that ANY Gods actually
exist?
>>>
>
>I don't believe God exists.
>
>God is the ground of all existence and being and not an existent being.
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>from John A T Robinson, Bishop of Woolwich, 'Honest To God'
>(SCM, London: 1963)
>
>********************
>
>God, [Paul] Tillich was saying, is not a projection 'out there', an Other
>beyond the skies, of whose existence we have to convince ourselves, but
the
>Ground of our very Being. pp. 22
>
>God is, by definition, ultimate reality. And one cannot argue whether
>ultimate reality really exists. One can only ask what ultimate reality
is
>like ... Thus, the fundamental theological question is not in
establi****ng
>the 'existence' of God as a separate entity but in pressing through in
>ultimate concern to what Tillich calls 'the ground of our being'.. p. 29
>
>God is not 'out there'. He is in Bonhoeffer's words ' the "beyond" in the
>midst of our life', a depth of reality reached ' not on the borders of
life
>but at its centre', not by any flight of the alone to the alone, but, in
>Kierkegaard's fine phrase, by ' a deeper immersion in existence'. For
the
>word 'God' denotes the ultimate depth of all our being, the creative
ground
>and meaning of all our existence. ...Tillich warns us that to make the
>necessary transposition, 'you must forget everything traditional that you
>have learned about God, perhaps even that word itself.' p. 47
>
>.... the beginning is to try to be honest - and to go on from there. p.
141
>
>**************
What Mark calls God the rest of us call nature or the universe.
No wonder Mark's God lacks intelligence.
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
|
