"Willy" <wesk@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:IXvRj.129$nW2.87@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist" <nospamatall@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
> message news:xmqQj.37205$B83.2954@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> "Willy" <wesk@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> news:9QpQj.22416$%41.19199@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist" <nospamatall@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
>>> message news:x1ELj.38918$h65.2019@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>
>>>> "Willy" <wesk@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>> news:vKvLj.2476$GE1.2305@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>> "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist" <nospamatall@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
in
>>>>> message news:entLj.2151$B83.1674@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "- .. -- Tim .-." <timreason@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:u_CdnZZGJeN0TGDanZ2dnUVZ8vqdnZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Willy" <wesk@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:Y9fLj.2469$%41.2003@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>>> "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist" <nospamatall@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote
>>>>>>>> in message news:m49Lj.47738$kN5.30229@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>>>> Willy typed:
>>>>>>>>>>yet scripture does nothing to condemn slavery as it was a full
>>>>>>>>>>accepted lifestyle at that point in history. Yet today, we all
>>>>>>>>>>KNOW better,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Man never knows 'BETTER' then God, He knows best, and He does
not,
>>>>>>>>> and neither did Christ, or any of the Inspired Apostles condemn
or
>>>>>>>>> even forbid Christians to be slave owners.
>>>>>>>>> If God hated slavery, He would have made it very plain, it was
a
>>>>>>>>> sin and immoral, but He didn't.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On the contrary, Christian slaves were commanded to work even
>>>>>>>>> harder for their brother masters, as if they were working for
>>>>>>>>> Christ himself. And masters were never commanded to release
their
>>>>>>>>> slaves, just to treat them properly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What is certainly condemned as sin and immoral, are all acts of
>>>>>>>>> adultery, including remarriages after divorce, and Hetro and
>>>>>>>>> Homo'Sodomite fornication, and those who commit such acts are to
>>>>>>>>> be excommunicated from the churches forthwith.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jeff...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can't believe you're so blinded by your own foolish dogma to
say
>>>>>>>> that God approves of slavery.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I won't waste my time correcting the foolishness of your
>>>>>>>> statements.
>>>>>>>> Willy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You cannot correct what is true, it's high time you started doing
the
>>>>>> Daily Readings, you would have read all about the Apostolic
approval
>>>>>> of slavery by now. I left out the passages relating to it, to see
>>>>>> just how much you know your Bible, and 1st Century Christian
>>>>>> teaching, it seems it is not very much, thus the foolishness of
your
>>>>>> reply.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We should go and capture Jeff and keep him as a slave,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You could never afford my price, Tim....{;o;}
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>since he believes that is acceptable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1st Century Christian teaching well accepts it, no sin in owning
>>>>>> slaves nor any unrighteousness.
>>>>>> Not so hetro and homo fornication that is a real sinful and wicked
>>>>>> no-no.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeff...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> First century folk
>>>>
>>>> I am talking about faithful Christians, not 'folk' .
>>>>
>>>>>accepted slavery, but today WE KNOW BETTER.
>>>>
>>>> No-one can know better then Inspired Paul and the Apostles who where
>>>> personally ordained by Christ to teach us Gentiles.
>>>> Their teaching is what we are to follow, for theirs has the full
>>>> approval of both God and Christ.
>>>>
>>>> "The one who listens to you, listens to me. The one who rejects you,
>>>> rejects me. And rejecting me is the same as rejecting God, who sent
>>>> me." Luke 10:16 (MSG)
>>>>
>>>> "15 But the Lord said, "Go and do what I say. For Paul is my chosen
>>>> instrument to take my message to the nations and before kings, as
well
>>>> as to the people of Israel. 16 And I will show him how much he must
>>>> suffer for me." Acts 9:15-16 (TLB)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paul, and Peter obviously with Christ's consent approved of slavery
for
>>>> all brethren of the Lord as the following passages show.
>>>>
>>>> So, what does the Scripture have to say on this subject ?
>>>> Cols. 4:1 "Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly,
>>>> knowing that you also have a Master in heaven." (RSV)
>>>>
>>>> Eph. 6:8 "Knowing that whatever good any one does, he will
>>>> receive the same again from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free.
>>>> 9 Masters, do the same to them, and forbear threatening, knowing that
>>>> he who
>>>> is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no
>>>> partiality
>>>> with him.
>>>>
>>>> Cols. 3:22 "Slaves, obey in everything those who are your
>>>> earthly masters, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in
>>>> singleness of
>>>> heart, fearing the Lord.
>>>> 23 Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not
men,
>>>> 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as
your
>>>> reward; you are serving the Lord Christ."
>>>>
>>>> Titus 2:9 "Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to
>>>> give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to be refractory,
>>>> 10 nor to pilfer, but to show entire and true fidelity, so that in
>>>> everything they may adorn the doctrine of God."
>>>>
>>>> 1 Peter 2:18 "Servants, be submissive to your masters with
>>>> all respect, not only to the kind and gentle but also to the
>>>> overbearing.
>>>> 19 For one is approved if, mindful of God, he endures pain while
>>>> suffering
>>>> unjustly.
>>>> 20 For what credit is it, if when you do wrong and are beaten for it
>>>> you
>>>> take it patiently? But if when you do right and suffer for it you
take
>>>> it
>>>> patiently, you have God's approval."
>>>>
>>>> 1 Timothy 6:1 "Let all who are under the yoke of slavery
>>>> regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God
>>>> and the
>>>> teaching may not be defamed.
>>>>
>>>> 2 Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the
>>>> ground
>>>> that they are brethren; rather they must serve all the better since
>>>> those
>>>> who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and
urge
>>>> these duties.
>>>>
>>>> 3 If any one teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound
words
>>>> of
>>>> our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching which accords with godliness,
>>>> 4 he is puffed up with conceit, he knows nothing; he has a morbid
>>>> craving
>>>> for controversy and for disputes about words." (RSV)
>>>>
>>>> See how Paul warns about anyone objecting to all of this.
>>>> "If any one teaches otherwise....he is puffed up with conceit, he
knows
>>>> nothing; he has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes
about
>>>> words."
>>>>
>>>> Now why would Paul pen such unkind 'insults' about certain people who
>>>> refuse
>>>> to accept the duties of Christian slaves and masters if God does not
>>>> approve
>>>> of slavery?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> First century folk believed women were little more than livestock,
but
>>>>> today WE KNOW BETTER.
>>>>
>>>> First century folk may have believed it, but not 1st Century
>>>> Christians.
>>>> They knew much better even then. They were never to be treated like
>>>> livestock.
>>>>
>>>>> First century folk often believed that illness was the result of
sin,
>>>>> but today WE KNOW BETTER.
>>>>
>>>> No! sometimes God's sends illnesses to punish us and to curb our
>>>> excesses.
>>>> Read your Bible for once.....
>>>>
>>>>> First century folk believe anything outside of cultural norms and
>>>>> cultural *** was sin, but today WE KNOW BETTER.
>>>>
>>>> Really, look at the result, over 40% of babies born in Britain today
>>>> are BASTARDS!
>>>> ***ual transmitted diseases are at all time levels.
>>>>
>>>> Adultery, fornication, the abomination of Homo***uality, paedophilia
>>>> are all at all time records.
>>>> If that is knowing better, then some people need their brains
testing.
>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately, you have not yet been clued into the knowledge and
>>>>> higher critiques / studies of the scripture.
>>>>
>>>> There is no higher critiques then what the NT teachers, well for
>>>> fiathful Christians anyway.
>>>> Do you call yourself a Christian, Will?
>>>>
>>>> Jeff...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I certainly am a Christian, and am very active in the Christian
>>> community.
>>>
>>> With that said however, I find it deeply troublesome that you must
wrap
>>> yourself in the historical teachings of 2000 years ago, and that
WITHOUT
>>> CONSIDERING the bias, or socially accepted customs, or simply the fact
>>> that scripture WAS WRITTEN BY MEN, with the best of intention, yet
often
>>> filled with bad judgment and error.
>>>
>>> We know better than to take another human being and force them into
>>> slavery. We KNOW that women are as intelligent (if not more so) than
>>> men, and are often great leaders, and perhaps Presidents!!! (can you
>>> say Hillary)lol
>>>
>>> And we know that Paul, in all his obvious misgivings and
contradictions,
>>> was at the same time filled with good intent.
>>>
>>> But to take a literary do***ent (the Bible) and try to build an
absolute
>>> set of standards beyond the 10 commandments cannot stand the test of
>>> time and the ever evolving world in which we live.
>>>
>>> I've observed your rants regarding gay folk. Homo***uality was not a
>>> known "condition" during bible times. The word "homo***ual" simply
did
>>> not exist, nor did that condition exist under any other name.
>>
>> It didn't need to 'Actions speak louder then words' you know.
>> "13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of
>> them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death;
>> their blood shall be upon them. 14 And if a man take a wife and her
>> mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and
>> they; that there be no wickedness among you." Lev 20:13-14 (KJV)
>> The word we used until most recently was Sodomy or being a Sodomite.
>>
>>> If faithful Christians are supposed to accept and embrace slavery,
then
>>> I would quickly divorce myself from that identity,
>>
>> You had better do so then, get your 'quicki' divorce, for slavery is
NOT
>> condemned by either Christ or the Apostles, or called a sin.
>>
>>>but thankfully, most of us have grown, and through the historical
>>>experience of our elders, we have come to realize that slavery by any
>>>name is a violation of another human being. And that, in my opinion,
>>>would be a sin.
>>
>> In your opinion is totally correct.
>> But certainly NOT forbidden in the Word of the Lord, either in the Old
or
>> New Testaments.
>>
>> You have a serious problem over it, just as millions of others who
prefer
>> their own opinions, then to accept what the Scripture teaches.
>> God even allowed His own people the Israelites to obtain and buy slaves
>> without either guilt or hindrance.
>> Same as in the NT, it has never been a sin to own one or own many
slaves.
>>
>> If it was wrong and a sin, like thieving, lying, fornicating, adultery,
>> heresy, drunkenness, "mankind lying with mankind" [present-day
Homo***ual
>> depravity], etc, either Jesus or the Christ ordained Apostles would
have
>> stated so, but they didn't, in fact they told the slaves to work even
>> harder if their masters happened to be on of Christ's brethren.
>> Answer that one Willy...{;o;}
>>
>> Jeff...
>> 1 Timothy 6:1 "Let all who are under the yoke of slavery
>> regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God
and
>> the teaching may not be defamed"
>> You aren't trying to defame the name of God and the teaching regarding
>> slavery are you?
> There really IS an answer, and it's not so far from your point!!!
> Surprised? Dare I be in agreement with you?
>
> Absolutely not, but here's where we cross hairs.
>
> Slavery at THAT time in history was NOT the same kind of slavery that WE
> know in our society. It was not necessarily forced, in fact people that
> had debt beyond their ability to repay would often sell themselves into
> slavery rather than debtor's jail etc...
It was still slavery.
> My point being there was a complete difference in the mindset of slavery
> at that time, versus the horrific acts placed upon the African's which
> were forced to come to America and be used and abused.
They were not true Christians who traded with "menstealers".
> With that said however, I think the majority of us, particularly
> Christian's, would agree that ANY form of slavery is against the overall
> theme of love, compassion, helping others in need...
Not according to NT Scripture, never was a word stated protesting about
slave owning, or calling it unrighteous.
> there's no way you can keep a man down to the lowest form of life, and
> still consider yourself a Christian. The two cannot possibly coexist.
They did in both Christ's and the Apostles eyes and in their reality,
never
was it forbidden and never was it given as a reason for a slave brother to
be realeased from his slavery.
So they you are...{;o;}
Jeff...
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