"1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist" <nospamatall@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
message news:xmqQj.37205$B83.2954@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> "Willy" <wesk@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:9QpQj.22416$%41.19199@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist" <nospamatall@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
>> message news:x1ELj.38918$h65.2019@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>> "Willy" <wesk@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>> news:vKvLj.2476$GE1.2305@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist" <nospamatall@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
>>>> message news:entLj.2151$B83.1674@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>
>>>>> "- .. -- Tim .-." <timreason@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>>> news:u_CdnZZGJeN0TGDanZ2dnUVZ8vqdnZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Willy" <wesk@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:Y9fLj.2469$%41.2003@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>> "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist" <nospamatall@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
>>>>>>> in message news:m49Lj.47738$kN5.30229@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>>> Willy typed:
>>>>>>>>>yet scripture does nothing to condemn slavery as it was a full
>>>>>>>>>accepted lifestyle at that point in history. Yet today, we all
>>>>>>>>>KNOW better,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Man never knows 'BETTER' then God, He knows best, and He does
not,
>>>>>>>> and neither did Christ, or any of the Inspired Apostles condemn
or
>>>>>>>> even forbid Christians to be slave owners.
>>>>>>>> If God hated slavery, He would have made it very plain, it was a
>>>>>>>> sin and immoral, but He didn't.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the contrary, Christian slaves were commanded to work even
>>>>>>>> harder for their brother masters, as if they were working for
>>>>>>>> Christ himself. And masters were never commanded to release their
>>>>>>>> slaves, just to treat them properly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What is certainly condemned as sin and immoral, are all acts of
>>>>>>>> adultery, including remarriages after divorce, and Hetro and
>>>>>>>> Homo'Sodomite fornication, and those who commit such acts are to
be
>>>>>>>> excommunicated from the churches forthwith.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jeff...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't believe you're so blinded by your own foolish dogma to say
>>>>>>> that God approves of slavery.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I won't waste my time correcting the foolishness of your
statements.
>>>>>>> Willy
>>>>>
>>>>> You cannot correct what is true, it's high time you started doing
the
>>>>> Daily Readings, you would have read all about the Apostolic approval
>>>>> of slavery by now. I left out the passages relating to it, to see
just
>>>>> how much you know your Bible, and 1st Century Christian teaching, it
>>>>> seems it is not very much, thus the foolishness of your reply.
>>>>>
>>>>>> We should go and capture Jeff and keep him as a slave,
>>>>>
>>>>> You could never afford my price, Tim....{;o;}
>>>>>
>>>>>>since he believes that is acceptable.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1st Century Christian teaching well accepts it, no sin in owning
>>>>> slaves nor any unrighteousness.
>>>>> Not so hetro and homo fornication that is a real sinful and wicked
>>>>> no-no.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> First century folk
>>>
>>> I am talking about faithful Christians, not 'folk' .
>>>
>>>>accepted slavery, but today WE KNOW BETTER.
>>>
>>> No-one can know better then Inspired Paul and the Apostles who where
>>> personally ordained by Christ to teach us Gentiles.
>>> Their teaching is what we are to follow, for theirs has the full
>>> approval of both God and Christ.
>>>
>>> "The one who listens to you, listens to me. The one who rejects you,
>>> rejects me. And rejecting me is the same as rejecting God, who sent
me."
>>> Luke 10:16 (MSG)
>>>
>>> "15 But the Lord said, "Go and do what I say. For Paul is my chosen
>>> instrument to take my message to the nations and before kings, as well
>>> as to the people of Israel. 16 And I will show him how much he must
>>> suffer for me." Acts 9:15-16 (TLB)
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul, and Peter obviously with Christ's consent approved of slavery
for
>>> all brethren of the Lord as the following passages show.
>>>
>>> So, what does the Scripture have to say on this subject ?
>>> Cols. 4:1 "Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly,
>>> knowing that you also have a Master in heaven." (RSV)
>>>
>>> Eph. 6:8 "Knowing that whatever good any one does, he will
>>> receive the same again from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free.
>>> 9 Masters, do the same to them, and forbear threatening, knowing that
he
>>> who
>>> is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no
>>> partiality
>>> with him.
>>>
>>> Cols. 3:22 "Slaves, obey in everything those who are your
>>> earthly masters, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in
singleness
>>> of
>>> heart, fearing the Lord.
>>> 23 Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men,
>>> 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your
>>> reward; you are serving the Lord Christ."
>>>
>>> Titus 2:9 "Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to
>>> give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to be refractory,
>>> 10 nor to pilfer, but to show entire and true fidelity, so that in
>>> everything they may adorn the doctrine of God."
>>>
>>> 1 Peter 2:18 "Servants, be submissive to your masters with
>>> all respect, not only to the kind and gentle but also to the
>>> overbearing.
>>> 19 For one is approved if, mindful of God, he endures pain while
>>> suffering
>>> unjustly.
>>> 20 For what credit is it, if when you do wrong and are beaten for it
you
>>> take it patiently? But if when you do right and suffer for it you take
>>> it
>>> patiently, you have God's approval."
>>>
>>> 1 Timothy 6:1 "Let all who are under the yoke of slavery
>>> regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God
and
>>> the
>>> teaching may not be defamed.
>>>
>>> 2 Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the
>>> ground
>>> that they are brethren; rather they must serve all the better since
>>> those
>>> who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and
urge
>>> these duties.
>>>
>>> 3 If any one teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words
>>> of
>>> our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching which accords with godliness,
>>> 4 he is puffed up with conceit, he knows nothing; he has a morbid
>>> craving
>>> for controversy and for disputes about words." (RSV)
>>>
>>> See how Paul warns about anyone objecting to all of this.
>>> "If any one teaches otherwise....he is puffed up with conceit, he
knows
>>> nothing; he has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes
about
>>> words."
>>>
>>> Now why would Paul pen such unkind 'insults' about certain people who
>>> refuse
>>> to accept the duties of Christian slaves and masters if God does not
>>> approve
>>> of slavery?
>>>
>>>
>>>> First century folk believed women were little more than livestock,
but
>>>> today WE KNOW BETTER.
>>>
>>> First century folk may have believed it, but not 1st Century
Christians.
>>> They knew much better even then. They were never to be treated like
>>> livestock.
>>>
>>>> First century folk often believed that illness was the result of sin,
>>>> but today WE KNOW BETTER.
>>>
>>> No! sometimes God's sends illnesses to punish us and to curb our
>>> excesses.
>>> Read your Bible for once.....
>>>
>>>> First century folk believe anything outside of cultural norms and
>>>> cultural *** was sin, but today WE KNOW BETTER.
>>>
>>> Really, look at the result, over 40% of babies born in Britain today
are
>>> BASTARDS!
>>> ***ual transmitted diseases are at all time levels.
>>>
>>> Adultery, fornication, the abomination of Homo***uality, paedophilia
are
>>> all at all time records.
>>> If that is knowing better, then some people need their brains testing.
>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, you have not yet been clued into the knowledge and
>>>> higher critiques / studies of the scripture.
>>>
>>> There is no higher critiques then what the NT teachers, well for
>>> fiathful Christians anyway.
>>> Do you call yourself a Christian, Will?
>>>
>>> Jeff...
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I certainly am a Christian, and am very active in the Christian
>> community.
>>
>> With that said however, I find it deeply troublesome that you must wrap
>> yourself in the historical teachings of 2000 years ago, and that
WITHOUT
>> CONSIDERING the bias, or socially accepted customs, or simply the fact
>> that scripture WAS WRITTEN BY MEN, with the best of intention, yet
often
>> filled with bad judgment and error.
>>
>> We know better than to take another human being and force them into
>> slavery. We KNOW that women are as intelligent (if not more so) than
men,
>> and are often great leaders, and perhaps Presidents!!! (can you say
>> Hillary)lol
>>
>> And we know that Paul, in all his obvious misgivings and
contradictions,
>> was at the same time filled with good intent.
>>
>> But to take a literary do***ent (the Bible) and try to build an
absolute
>> set of standards beyond the 10 commandments cannot stand the test of
time
>> and the ever evolving world in which we live.
>>
>> I've observed your rants regarding gay folk. Homo***uality was not a
>> known "condition" during bible times. The word "homo***ual" simply did
>> not exist, nor did that condition exist under any other name.
>
> It didn't need to 'Actions speak louder then words' you know.
> "13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of
them
> have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their
> blood shall be upon them. 14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it
> is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that
there
> be no wickedness among you." Lev 20:13-14 (KJV)
> The word we used until most recently was Sodomy or being a Sodomite.
>
>> If faithful Christians are supposed to accept and embrace slavery, then
I
>> would quickly divorce myself from that identity,
>
> You had better do so then, get your 'quicki' divorce, for slavery is NOT
> condemned by either Christ or the Apostles, or called a sin.
>
>>but thankfully, most of us have grown, and through the historical
>>experience of our elders, we have come to realize that slavery by any
name
>>is a violation of another human being. And that, in my opinion, would
be
>>a sin.
>
> In your opinion is totally correct.
> But certainly NOT forbidden in the Word of the Lord, either in the Old
or
> New Testaments.
>
> You have a serious problem over it, just as millions of others who
prefer
> their own opinions, then to accept what the Scripture teaches.
> God even allowed His own people the Israelites to obtain and buy slaves
> without either guilt or hindrance.
> Same as in the NT, it has never been a sin to own one or own many
slaves.
>
> If it was wrong and a sin, like thieving, lying, fornicating, adultery,
> heresy, drunkenness, "mankind lying with mankind" [present-day
Homo***ual
> depravity], etc, either Jesus or the Christ ordained Apostles would have
> stated so, but they didn't, in fact they told the slaves to work even
> harder if their masters happened to be on of Christ's brethren.
> Answer that one Willy...{;o;}
>
> Jeff...
> 1 Timothy 6:1 "Let all who are under the yoke of slavery
> regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and
> the teaching may not be defamed"
> You aren't trying to defame the name of God and the teaching regarding
> slavery are you?
>
>
>
>
There really IS an answer, and it's not so far from your point!!!
Surprised? Dare I be in agreement with you?
Absolutely not, but here's where we cross hairs.
Slavery at THAT time in history was NOT the same kind of slavery that WE
know in our society. It was not necessarily forced, in fact people that
had
debt beyond their ability to repay would often sell themselves into
slavery
rather than debtor's jail etc...
My point being there was a complete difference in the mindset of slavery
at
that time, versus the horrific acts placed upon the African's which were
forced to come to America and be used and abused.
With that said however, I think the majority of us, particularly
Christian's, would agree that ANY form of slavery is against the overall
theme of love, compassion, helping others in need... there's no way you
can
keep a man down to the lowest form of life, and still consider yourself a
Christian. The two cannot possibly coexist.
Willy
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