Barry OGrady wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:06:34 GMT, Chris Bell <cbell@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>
>
>> Mark T wrote:
>>
>>> "lynx" <none@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>
>>> <re-organised for logical purposes>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hey Bazz.. let's see if Morkie can answer your questions.
>>>>
>>> I'll have a try.
>>>
>> *lots of good stuff snipped - well answered Mark!*
>>
>
> Mark's post is not on my ISP's news server or on Google and I would
> like to read it. Could someone please quote it in full?
>
no prob...
<re-organised for logical purposes>
> > Hey Bazz.. let's see if Morkie can answer your questions.
>
I'll have a try.
> > He thinks knows everything about God
>
Do I? Nobody told me. Any finite talk about an infinite God is next to
nothing.
>> >> In your Gods world; Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic
Eruptions,
>> >> Wars, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases, serious body
>> >> malfunctions and starvation exist that torture both man and animals.
>>
.....
>> >> If an all powerful god created this, why did he make so many
horrible >>
>> >> mistakes and create this huge multitude of imperfections, pain and
>> >> suffering???
>>
.......
>> >> Logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any omnipotent
gods;
>> >> Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able?
>> >> Then he is not omnipotent.
>> >> Is he able, but not willing?
>> >> Then he is malevolent.
>> >> Is he both able and willing?
>> >> Then where does evil come from?
>> >> Is he neither able nor willing?
>> >> Then why call him a god?
>>
Therein is the problem of Epicurus that I keep posing. No-one has
answered
the problem but I think Rabbi Harold Kushner has a good contribution to
the
solution ....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Samantha Trenoweth "The Future of God" (Millenium Books 1995)
"This is the crucial religious question," he explained earlier this
evening.
"When it is left unanswered, it festers the soul, it corrupts faith, it
causes people to leave faith. When it is answered badly, it breeds
cynicism
and mistrust. When it works, when people are anble to find consolation
and
solace in the teachings of their religion, at a time when they need it the
most, then that religion will be a source of sustenance for the rest of
their lives. How shall we understand the sufferings of good people? There
is no more im****tant question we can ask." p. 141
"... when we ask this question, we discover that most of the answers we're
given simply do not work. ... They would say to me, 'God is putting your
family to this test because you're so strong in your faith and you can
handle it. You'll be an inspiration to others.' All I could think of was,
I
wish I was less religious. Let God test somebody else and give us a
healthy
child.' People said, 'God is doing this to you so you become a more
sensitive person and write this book which will help thousands of people
afterwards.' I imagined the response if a defence attorney for a human
murder was to get up in court and say , 'Look at all the good my client
has
accomplished by killing that child. All over the country, people are much
more vigilant about where their children go when they leave the house and
all over this continent, people are grateful that their child is alive and
well because my client hasn't got his hands on them.' "They would never
be
taken seriously in a court of law. Why do we say the same thing about
God?
We say that God would torture and kill an innocent person so that other
people will grow spiritually as a result. I have never accepted the idea
that God allows retarded children to be born so that the woman next door
will realise how lucky she is that her kids are normal. Why does God
strike
somebody blind or crippled? So we can have the op****tunity to drop a coin
in
their tin cup as they beg? I cannot take seriously a God who would choose
such things. ... I realized why all the conventional religious answers
didn't comfort me. You know why? Becauise they weren't supposed to. They
were not intended to make me feel better. They were intended to defend
and
justify God." pp. 142 -143
"The conclusion I came to ... was to challenge ... that everything that
happens in this world, God wants to happen." ... Harold Kushner
jettisoned his belief in an all-powerful God." pp 146 -147
She said to him, "Pastor, if one more person tells me it was God's will,
I'm
going to scream. Why are they teaching me to hate God?" ... "We teach
people either to hate themselves for deserving it or to hate God for doing
it to them when they don't deserve it." .... "I would rather affirm God's
goodness," he says, "while compromising his power. I would rather believe
in
a God who sees things happening that he does not want to happen but cannot
stop them. I think goodness is of more religious value than power."
Around
this central tenet, he rebuilt his faith. According to Rabbi Kushner, the
primary reason why bad things happen to good people is that laws of nature
do not differentiate between a good person and a bad one. p. 147
..... a passage in the Talmud that he paraphrases as follows: "If a man
steals
seeds from his neighbour and plants them, justice would require that those
seeds do not germinate. Why should that man profit from his theft?
However,
nature is not just and stolen seeds grow." Life is full of such
instances.
Nature is amoral, he insits, and God does not interfere with laws of
nature.
..... the ability to know the difference between right and wrong. Human
beings habve that ability. Falling rocks and viruses don't. ... That's
the
first source of suffering and unfairness that God canot
prevent." ... Dorothy Soell ... German Lutheran theologian ... "Where was
God at Auschwitz?" Her answer is that God was at the side of the victims,
suffering and grieving with them, not on the side of the murderers. p.
148
"... Instead of raising our hands to heaven and saying, 'God, why do you
let
these things happen" we applied our God-given intelligence to the problem,
until we solved it, just as we will one day solve the problem of cancer
and
AIDS and heart disease." p. 150
"Why do good people suffer in God's world?" he asks again. "The answer
is,
I don't know why and if I knew why, I wouldn't tell you because, if I told
you , I'd be making the same mistake that all thgose people made with me
so
many years ago - taking something that fundamentally doesn't make sense
and
trying to make sense of it. ..." p. 155'
"... Jews don't actually pray for, Jews pray to. Prayer does not mean
asking God to do something. Prayer, in Judaism, means askinmg God to be
with you. .." p. 158
"... Ultimately the question is not, 'Why does God permit this?' ... The
real question is, 'From where does my help come? How will I manage to get
through this?' The psalmist's answer, it seems to me, must be our answer
as
well: 'My help comes from the Lord, maker of heaven and earth.'" p. 159
>> >> The objective evidence is that gods did not create man but quite the
>> >> opposite; man created gods!
>>
You've been listening to too much of Jethro Tull's "Aqualung"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In the beginning Man created God
and in the image of Man
created he him.
(Linear notes)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
but forgot the last song ....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wind Up
.......
So I asked this God a question
and by way of firm reply,
He said -- I'm not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays.
So to my old headmaster (and to anyone who cares):
before I'm through I'd like to say my prayers --
I don't believe you:
you had the whole damn thing all wrong --
He's not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays.
......
I'd rather look around me -- compose a better song
`cos that's the honest measure of my worth.
In your pomp and all your glory you're a poorer man than me,
as you lick the boots of death born out of fear.
I don't believe you:
you had the whole damn thing all wrong --
He's not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >> Where is ANY objective verifiable evidence that ANY Gods actually
exist?
>>
I don't believe God exists.
God is the ground of all existence and being and not an existent being.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from John A T Robinson, Bishop of Woolwich, 'Honest To God'
(SCM, London: 1963)
********************
God, [Paul] Tillich was saying, is not a projection 'out there', an Other
beyond the skies, of whose existence we have to convince ourselves, but
the
Ground of our very Being. pp. 22
God is, by definition, ultimate reality. And one cannot argue whether
ultimate reality really exists. One can only ask what ultimate reality is
like ... Thus, the fundamental theological question is not in establi****ng
the 'existence' of God as a separate entity but in pressing through in
ultimate concern to what Tillich calls 'the ground of our being'.. p. 29
God is not 'out there'. He is in Bonhoeffer's words ' the "beyond" in the
midst of our life', a depth of reality reached ' not on the borders of
life
but at its centre', not by any flight of the alone to the alone, but, in
Kierkegaard's fine phrase, by ' a deeper immersion in existence'. For the
word 'God' denotes the ultimate depth of all our being, the creative
ground
and meaning of all our existence. ...Tillich warns us that to make the
necessary transposition, 'you must forget everything traditional that you
have learned about God, perhaps even that word itself.' p. 47
..... the beginning is to try to be honest - and to go on from there. p.
141
**************
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