On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 19:02:11 +0100, "robert" <wmech@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>This both an invitation and a challenge to religionists to provide
objective
>verifiable evidence that there is some REAL God that we need to cater to
>
I'll accept the "invitation" but I'm not looking for a "challenge" or
any caustic argumentation...just friendly discussion. You are entitled
to your interpretations and mind set, just as much as any of us, and I
by no means claim to be error free and perfect. I'm still learning.
>
>
>A primary one is that there are thousands of different gods and god
beliefs.
>Any REAL god would surely make it abundantly clear, that he is the real
god
>and all the others are fakes. He would surely use his unlimited power to
>expose and eliminate all the fakes. Why would he permit his creations to
be
>misled by all these false gods?
>
To answer this we would first have to determine just what God has
going and how he is implementing it. My take on this is that we
hominids are presently going through a hands-on learning phase during
which we are expected to learn enough about sin and rebellion to
assure God that we will never want to go back and explore it any
further, once we have been granted immortality and sovereignty.
This learning phase had to be our personal experience, with our
ability to make lots of choices along the way. That is, had God just
pre-programmed us to do his will and not be attracted to sin and
rebellion, we would be nothing more than puppets, and this isn't what
God wants of us.
>
>If there was a REAL God would he not destroy the thousands of false gods
and
>establish his authenticity, wishes and commands directly from his heaven.
>
Not necessarily. These false gods serve some "educational" purpose to
all of us. We don't have to embrace and wor****p these false gods to
learn about this form of sin and rebellion. All we have to do is
observe the end result for those who do embrace these false gods.
>
>If man can communicate with the whole world by Phone, Radio, the Internet
>and TV it obviously would be no problem for any real god to communicate
>directly with his creations without thousands of intermediates of
>questionable veracity.
>
I'm sure God could communicate with everyone just as you say, but if
He did, would any of us have anything even approaching free will?
Wouldn't we all be cowed into compliance? And would any of us ever
have an op****tunity to explore sin and rebellion, and get it out of
our system forever?
>
>Why would not a real god announce directly and authoritatively from his
>heaven, that he is the real god and what do***ents are authentic and
which are fakes
>and destroy them? He certainly should want to prevent his creations from
being.
>deceived and mislead
>
God does communicate by means of the Holy Spirit to those who have
reached the point where they are ready to exercise their sovereign
will to turn away from sin and rebellion.
>
>Although billions of people have died there is not a single
'authenticated
>and proven' case where anyone of them has ever communicated with their
living children,
>spouses or friends.
>
>Why would god not allow these souls in his heaven to explain and confirm
the
>virtues, benefits and even the existence of his heaven? Logic says it is
>because they don't exist after death!
>
Again, turn the question around and ask yourself, would you have
anything approaching sovereign will if God did this? The key idea in
all this is that we are here to learn about sin and rebellion, and we
wouldn't learn much about it if we were protected from the plethora of
effects.
The only way any of us can ever mature into immortal sovereign beings
who are not simply puppets is for us to each experience the effects of
sin and rebellion, and from this learning process, make our own
sovereign decisions as to which side of the line we want to be
on...with God or apart from God throughout eternity. God isn't going
to shove this decision down anyone's throat, so to speak.
>
>All religions are ALL based on ancient myths and tales and NO god has
>directly AUTHENTICATED ANY of them.
>
Would those ancient people have been able to grasp the messages had
the information been given in modern 21st century scientific
vernacular? Can we modern, educated people decipher the meaning from
those ancient writings and fit them into to our 21st century way of
thinking? Would it have been fair to those ancient people had God
given the information to them in a form that no one could understand
for some 2 to 3 thousand years?
>
>Man can directly communicate with the whole world via TV, the Internet,
>Phone and Radio and the postal service. IF there is a real God, why does
he
>not announce to the whole world from his heaven, by at least equally
>effective means, that he is the real God and all the others are fakes?
And
>why does he not tell us clearly and directly what he expects from us
instead
>of using hundreds of vague, ancient, contradictory, unoriginal do***ents,
>compiled by different religions and hundreds of men of unknown veracity?
Why
>does he not expose and smite all the false Gods and doctrines?
>
>
>
>An all powerful creator of this huge Universe would have no need or
desire
>for people to sing hymns and waste their time on their knees in
adulation.
>This type of thing is the practice of greedy leaders with a need to
satisfy
>their selfish egos.
>
It isn't that God has a need for anyone to sing hymns or pray to Him,
but we do need this sort of emotionally based experience in our
learning process.
>
>An all powerful creator of this huge Universe and everything in it would
>have no need or desire to create, Sin, Devils, Evil, Spirits or Hells
>
God created the multiverse with EVERYTHING included, even sin, devils,
etc. Had he not included these, His creation would not have been
complete, and incomplete equates too "not perfect." God is now in the
process of separating that which is good from that which is not good.
When this process is completed, there will no longer be anything "not
good" in God's domain, and there will no longer be anything "good" in
Satan's domain.
>
>There would be no need for basing ones life on 'FAITH' and the
preaching's
>of errant selfish men because we would have direct communication and
>authentification directly from this all powerful REAL God
>
Keep in mind that God operates from an eternity tem****al perspective.
We live in a time tem****al space/time universe. Things that take a
very long time from our perspective are done instantly from God's
perspective.
>
>There is no evidence that any of these Gods communicate with any fully
sane
>persons.
>
Prophecy that has fulfilled itself is a very strong argument against
the statement you made above.
>
>No dead fathers, mothers relatives or friends ever verify there heaven or
>hell with their living siblings or friends.
>
>There is an overwhelming multitude of religions and god beliefs.
>
>They can't all be true and no REAL God would permit this massive
deception
>of his creations.
>
You are right, they are not true, but they do serve a useful purpose.
We learn from all those human errors. And. learning is what this life
is all about.
>
>Major religions;
>
>
>Baha'i Faith
>Buddhism
>Adventist
>Jehovah's Witnesses
>British Israelism
>Southern Baptists
>American Baptists
>
>Catholics
>Christian Science
>Amish
>Brethren
>Mennonites
>Quakers
>Shakers
>Plymouth Brethren
>Fundamentalists
>Twin Oaks
>Con****ianism
>Hinduism
>Islam
>Jainism
>Judaism
>****nto
>Sikhism
>Taoism
>Vodun (Voodoo)
>Neopagan Religious Faiths
>Asatru (Norse Paganism)
>Druidism
>Goddess Wor****p
>Wicca
>Witchcraft
>Caodaism
>Damanhur Community
>Druse
>Eckankar
>Elian Gonzalez religious movement
>Gnosticism
>Gypsies
>Hare Krishna - ISKCON
>Lukumi
>Ma***ba
>Mowahhidoon
>Native American Spirituality
>Rom, Roma, Romani, Rroma, (a.k.a. Gypsies)
>Santeria Elian Gonzalez religious movement
>Satanism; The Church of Satan
>Scientology
>Unitarian-Universalism
>The Creativity Movement
>Zoroastrianism
>
>
>
>Any all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent designer,
would
>not create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Earth
Quakes,
>Wars, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases, serious body
>malfunctions and starvation all of which punish people indiscriminately
>regardless of their behavior or religious beliefs. If he did he would not
be
>an all loving all caring god but a brutal malevolent creature or nothing
at
>all. There are 12,000 known diseases that torture and kill man. The
reality
>is that no all loving and all powerful god would create or permit these
>diseases to punish men of all religious persuasion and particularly
totally
>INNOCENT CHILDREN.
>
>
>
>Logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any omnipotent gods;
>
>
>
>Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able?
>Then he is not omnipotent.
>Is he able, but not willing?
>Then he is malevolent.
>Is he both able and willing?
>Then where does evil come from?
>Is he neither able nor willing?
>Then why call him a god?
>
>
>
>Religion is things hoped for but not yet seen or proven. Science is
things
>seen and proven but not necessarily hoped for.
>
>
>
>There is NO objective verifiable evidence that any Gods, Heavens, Sin,
>Hells, Devils or Angels exist except in the imaginations of man. These
>beliefs are held to help people deal with their panic fear of death and
what
>comes after.
>
>
>
>When there is NO objective verifiable evidence for some things existence
it
>is logical to assume it does no exist. The LACK of evidence is not
evidence
>of some things existence.
>
>
>
>The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the
opposite;
>that man created imaginary gods! (thousands of them!)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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