Okay, Bill, let's see what I can do to address your challenges.
"Bill M" <wmech@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> said :
> God fanatics constantly make the claim the wonders and complexity of
> the world is proof of God.
Your challenge is directed at concept of single god, as defined by
monotheistic religions.
> Why does this all powerful creator
This implies a single being directly and consciously response for
existence of world or cosmos.
> all loving and caring
Challenge is directed at god defined as universally benevolent.
> intelligent designer
Reiterates definition from 'all powerful creator'.
> Why punish millions of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this
> horrible way?
Appeal to emotion, along with implication that adult lives are not as
im****tant as those of children.
> Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent
> children" to die at birth?
Repetition of previous appeal to emotion.
> Why does he permit over 2,000,000 innocent children to die
Reptition of previous appeal to emotion.
Deity being challenged defined as male.
> God supposedly created the world like it is, to punish man for Adam
> and Eve's 'original sin'.
Adam and Eve feature in Abramic mythology only. God being challenged is
therefore that of the Christians, the Jews and the Muslims.
> Why does he also punish supposedly innocent children
Repetition of appeal to emotion. Intended meaning of 'supposedly' not
clear - term usually implies doubt about a claim.
> Why did this all powerful and loving creator
Repetition of definition; God as necessarily omnibenevolent.
> Over 100,000 of these were totally INNOCENT children!
Repetition of appeal to emotion.
> The death toll was over 137 million men, women and totally innocent
> children.
Repetition of appeal to emotion. Men and women can also be 'totally
innocent', but the same assumption is not made for them. This implies
that at least some adults deserved to die from the Black Death. I would
contest that.
> The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men, women and
> innocent children indiscriminately.
Repetition of appeal to emotion - see above re bubonic plague.
> ALL god beliefs
Indicates challenge towards all forms of religion.
So, Bill, how do I defend my religious beliefs against your challenges?
Well, given that your challenge is directed against a single omnipotent,
omnibenevolent, male creator god, none of it applies to my religion.
Which also doesn't include Adam and Eve.
"Think of the children" - employed repeatedly throughout your lecture -
is an empty argument and can be discarded as the weak rhetoric it is.
Which leaves us with relatively little. In fact, the only thing I can
really address in terms of my own belief system is the question you asked
of how come mankind has managed to do all these wonderful things you've
listed, find these marvellous cures and make stunning discoveries - all,
so you presume, without the help of gods.
Many Christians would argue that if God hadn't wanted us to fly, He
wouldn't have led us to discover how to make airfoils.
The truth is that we have achieved these things because it's in our
nature - whether that nature was designed or not. In the same way that it
appears to be our nature to exploit our world to make weapons out of
natural diseases, and engineer them into new variants in order to cause
even more agony and suffering. The way it appears to be our nature to
discover the spectacular beauty of the quantum world, and turn it
immediately towards wreaking massive death and destruction on our
fellows. The way we discover these wonderful cures for terrible ills,
and then withhold them until the sufferers stump up enough money. The
way we burn and rip the land, fill the sea and the sky with toxic filth,
and guzzle resources we cannot afford to sup****t lifestyles we do not
need.
It's one thing to labour our merits as proof that we don't need gods -
but it leaves us with a rather skewed impression of what mankind is. If
we can take the credit for our achievements, then we must also take the
blame for our failings. If some god or other is to be blamed for the
evil that we do, then that god should also be credited with our good.
> If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
> all-caring and benevolent god.
You're probably right.
> The objective evidence is if there is a god creator, he has NO concern
> about the welfare of the creatures on Earth.
And it continually puzzles me why so many people imagine He should -
given the time so many of them spend trying to express just how big He is
in comparison to us.
> I challenge god believers to supply ANY objective verifiable evidence
> that their god actually exists except in their over active
> imaginations.
>
> Who will accept the challenge???
To conclude: speaking for myself, I don't need to. Your challenge
doesn't apply to my beliefs.
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