[snips]
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 02:36:45 +0000, Will wrote:
>> They're posted in response to Christian claims posted to alt.atheism.
>> Christian claims that the Christian god objectively exists.
> Nonsense. I don't see how a Christian, or anyone for that matter, could
> make such a claim and support it with objective data
They can't, yet exactly such claims are made regularly.
> just as I don't
> see how an atheist could make a claim that God doesn't exist
Most atheists do not make any such claim. Those who do face the same
burden of evidence the theists who assert there god exists do.
>> Christians see "God's" forgiveness as an escape from accountability.
> No, they see God's forgiveness as grace granted. But a Christian cannot
> be in the act of sin with the thought in the back of his mind that
> he/she will simply ask for forgiveness later.
Actually, according to many, that's precisely how it works. Do what you
want now, ask forgiveness later. It is generally also suggested that one
must be honestly repentant - actually _mean_ they're sorry they did X when
they shouldn't have - but that doesn't stop 'em doing it in the first
place.
> That's not how repentence
> and grace works. Anyone who would tell you otherwise isn't a Christian,
> despite what they may claim.
Ah, yes, the No True Scotsman fallacy. Just because _your_ views of
Christianity and _his_ views differ, that makes _him_ not a Christian?
Oh, wait, if your views differ, he can equally validly say _you_ aren't a
Christian.
So, barring clear and objective foundation for your position, we'll have
to take that as nothing more than the fallacy noted above.
>> Atheists see the need to be accountable - to PEOPLE - while we're
>> alive.
> So do Christians. How can we love our neighbor as ourself and at the
> same time flake out on them all the time?
Dunno, but it happens pretty damn regularly.
>> That's usually what we hear from Christians in response to what they'd
>> do if they had no belief in God, since nothing would prevent them from
>> robbing, raping and killing.
>
> Somehow I doubt that.
"Indeed, if there were no God, I would have to be selfish, I believe,
because there would be no one else watching out for me, and no reason
to put anyone or anything ahead of me." -- Jesse C. Jones
Just as one example I happen to have handy. Of many such. The argument
is moderately frequent: without a god watching over you, there's no reason
at all to behave ethically. Without the "ultimate consequence", feel free
to do anything you can get away with.
> If this is what you hear from them, then they
> aren't Christians.
Not true Scotsmen, eh?
> They lack the belief in their heart, and are more
> than likely going to church just in case He might exist. I call these
> just-in-case believers, or Sunday Morning Christians.
And they call themselves Christians, with - thus far - just as much
justification as you do.
>> Learn the ACTUAL history of Christianity. The Nicene Council took the
>> name of a JEWISH movement ("Christianity" meant "anointed ones" - the
> A belief in God is one belief, not a set of beliefs. Nonetheless, going
> by your definition, since the atheists who have a belief in the
> nonexistence of God have their own theories on how the universe runs,
> than we could call certain sects of atheism a religion, as they meet the
> minimal criteria by dictionary.com for religion.
Yes, we could. The more fanatical "Ain't no such thing!" types are, IMO,
indistinguishable from the most rampant fundamentalist, except in
direction.
> Well, the truth of it is, I believe what I believe. I don't owe you
> anything for my beliefs. I hope that one day, however, you'll become a
> little more tolerant of those who chose to believe differently than you.
Sure. No problem. However, that will be contingent upon a few things.
It is Christians, more than any, trying to abolish abortion rights. We'll
happily be tolerant to them when they stop trying to mess with medicine.
It is Christians, more than any, trying to prevent or reverse same-sex
marriage rights. We'll happily be tolerant to them when they stop trying
to mess with law.
It is Christians, more than any, trying to introduce ID into the
classrooms or remove or limit evolution in them. We'll happily be
tolerant
to them when they stop trying to mess with education.
It was one Christian in particular - Bush - who said atheists should not
be considered citizens or patriots... but it is millions of Christians who
allowed him to say this without a nationwide protest. We'll happily be
tolerant
to them when they stop trying to mess with our rights, our status.
It is Christians, more than any, who have been found not just molesting
children, but covering up the actions of the members who did just this;
We'll happily be tolerant to them when they stop trying to mess with our
children.
>> Homosexuals coming out of the closet affect no one but the homosexual
>> coming out of the closet.
> You sure about that?
Yes, as it is nobody's business but the gay person's. Well, and their
partner's.
>>>IC. Well, in this case it would be different, however. As a Scottsman
>>>is a Scottsman no matter his actions.
>>
>> And one who claims to be a Christian is a Christian, no matter his
>> actions.
>
> Then I guess there will be many Christians who don't make it to Heaven.
Ah; you are the judge of who is and isn't worthy. Never thought I'd
actually _meet_ God.
> Mat 22:37-40 NKJV) "Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your
> God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
> {38} "This is the first and great commandment. {39} "And the second is
> like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' {40} "On these two
> commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.""
> So, there you have it. This is a section of what, according to Christ,
> constitutes a Christian. Therefore, no Christian could hate their
> neighbor, or they're not Christian.
Oh, they don't "hate their neighbour". They "hate the sin". So it's okay
to, oh, say, go out gay bashing because, after all, they're just hating
the
sin, and by doing this you're helping another lost soul come to Jesus.
> No Christian could hate God, or
> they are not Christian. No Christian would lie, cheat, steal, murder,
> bare false witness, covet their neighbors property, etc., or they are
> not Christian, for these acts go against the great commandment.
With the minor little nit that since all are sinners and all fall short,
they're *expected* to "screw up" and that's okay, because they have an
"out" - "I'm sorry, Jesus, please forgive me."
> Considering this, and considering that all the law and all the prophets
> hang on the two great commandments, we are left with no alternative if
> we go by scripture to follow God's law in the OT. All the new covenant
> did was extend forgiveness, do away with sacrifices, extend grace that
> we not condemn by the law, and allowed gentiles to serve God; it didn't
> replace the OT, but added to it.
Yet most Christians IME merrily ignore the OT almost in its entirety.
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