Al Klein <rukbat@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
news:hn0ai3tbm4pkdtnbmh5pknesg2cerh6j6n@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 02:53:06 GMT, Will <someone@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> wrote:
>
>>Al Klein <rukbat@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
>>news:jdl7i3tlocrinn11mjvcca7ge792og37b2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>> On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 19:45:49 GMT, Will <someone@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Al Klein <rukbat@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
>>>>news:q527i3pmb02aagbk1f7f4i1ci6h7802m98@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 16:37:33 GMT, Will <someone@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Bill M" <wmech@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in news:re3Ui.6130$b9.4174
>>>>>>@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are many hundreds of religious and god beliefs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How do you know your belief is the correct belief and all the
>>others
>>>>>>> are fakes?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>By the daily miracles, signs, and wonders. By the prophecies that
>>>>>>have been fulfilled, and are still being fulfilled today? By the
>>>>>>grace that He has extended me. By the answered prayers. By the
>>>>>>unanswered prayers. By faith and love.
>>>>>
>>>>> IOW, you don't have a clue.
>>>>
>>>>I'm not the one asking the questions here, you are. Try reading my
>>>>answer, however, instead of writing your own IOW answer.
>>>
>>> Not a single one of your assertions is objective, so you have no
>>> objective evidence, you have only your belief - as evidence that
>>> your belief is correct? The illogic is astounding.
>>>
>>>>>>> Why would any real God permit his creations to be so deceived?
>>>>>
>>>>>>Why don't you ask Him with an open mind and an open heart?
>>>>>
>>>>> Why don't you post objective evidence that "he" objectively
>>>>> exists?
>>>>
>>>>Because I'm not the one asking the loaded question
>>>
>>> No, you're the one claiming that your god objectively exists.
>>
>>I never claimed them to be.
>
> You claimed that your god produced "miracles, signs, and wonders",
He does. At least, I've seen them in my life.
> that it fulfilled prophecies,
OK. The Dead-Sea Scrolls have been R-14 dated back to well before the
time
of Christ, and within these are prophecies that related to Christ. When
you examine the synoptic gospels, and compare them to the prophecies from
the Dead Sea Scrolls, than the evidence speaks for itself.
> that it extended grace to you.
Ya. He did. Hallelujiah
> These
> are objective acts that require something that objectively exists to
> accomplish.
Is that what they are? I thought they were simply acts of God. In any
event, the R-14 dating of the Dead Sea Scrolls in and of itself is
objective, but the rest is personal.
>
>> In fact, within this thread, I have claimed
>>just the opposite, that I am not here to prove
>
> Sorry, but claiming that your god objectively exists (which, if you
> have any intelligence at all, you'll see from the above that you did)
/sigh/
[begin logical argument]
[begin construct (from dictionary.com)]
claim: an assertion of something as a fact
belief: confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately
susceptible to rigorous proof.
[end construct]
[begin logical argument]
My claim:
Since a belief is a confidence in the truth or existence of something not
immediately susceptible to rigorous proof, and since the existence or lack
thereof of God is not something immediately susceptible to rigorous proof,
and since I assert confidence in the truth and/or existence of God and His
miracles, this would satisfy a belief. Since I am not asserting as fact,
being something that is susceptible to proof or lack thereof, what I hold
in confidence to be true, the assertation of the existence of God and the
great works that He has done for me and those I know would constitute a
belief.
Your claim:
You have asserted of fact that my belief is a claim. Therefore, I ask for
objective verifiable evidence of your claim.
[snip misguided text]
>> to close-minded non-
>>believers the existing of my God, but if you want to know the truth,
>>simply ask Him whom I serve.
>
> No, I go to the source - and, in this case, YOU'RE the source of the
> claim.
As far as claims go, see above. As far as truth goes, see source, which
is
my Lord and Savior.
>>
>>[snip]
>
>>>>Why don't you ask yourself if He exists the next time you come
>>>>within a fraction of a second of sure death
>
>>> I did when I came many minutes AFTER dying. There's no god after
>>> death either. I didn't find one, and neither did any of the other
>>> people posting here who have died.
>
>>You've died, and yet your still alive? Than you didn't die, your
>>heart just stopped beating and you went unconsciouss from the lack of
>>oxygen to your brain.
>
> And my brain ceased all function for quite a while, which is the
> definition of death.
Well, then consider yourself blessed. BTW, FYI, in my belief, you
wouldn't
see God until the resurrection after Christ's second comming, when we all
face judgment, so it's no surprise that you didn't see anything.
>
>>>> just to be saved by some infinitesimal
>>>>improbability (we call those miracles where I'm from
>
>>> SANE people call them coincidences.
>
>>Blind people call them cioncidences.
>
> No, blind people call them miracles. "Blind" meaning people who can't
> see past the 15th century. Most of the gaps your god used to live in
> are now occupied by science.
>
> But prove me wrong - post A SINGLE objective miracle.
See below. Again, I don't care what you call it, the fact remains that
the
baby is alive and well now, despite having come so close to death that the
doctors and nursing staff in ICU didn't have much hope for the poor child.
Now, I don't know if you have a doctorate or not, but if a staff of people
medically trained, some with nursing degrees and some with doctorates,
come
to the conclusion that a miracle took place, than to me that outweighs any
uncertainty that you could possibly try to stir up.
>
>>> Sane people also don't believe in make-believe friends without
>>> objective evidence that they objectively exist.
>
>>Within the congregation I regularly attend, there was an infant in
>>ICU. Two months ago, she had somehow crawled over to a second story
>>window and fell out. She stayed in ICU for about a week, with the
>>doctors trying to prepare the family for what they thought was the
>>inevitable. But, through the power of prayer and the mercy and grace
>>that our Lord has brought, even the doctors, trained scientists who
>>see and have to deliver bad news daily, were astounded at what they
>>professed could only have been a miracle, as this baby not only
>>regained consciousness, but appeared to have no cognitive impairment
>>as a result of her tragedy.
[snip]
>
>>Now, if you want to tell the family that this wasn't a miracle, or the
>>doctors, than that's fine. I doubt you'll convince any of them,
>>though, as the FACT remains that their baby is still alive to this
>>day.
>
> All I'm asking you for is objective evidence, not fairy tales.
Great. The story I provided above is real, and happenned to a family
within my congregation.
[snip]
Now, here's an im****tant question, and perhaps the most im****tant
question.
If what you BELIEVE is the truth, than why is it so im****tant for you that
the world believe as you do. I haven't tried one bit to pursuade you to
my
belief, as the only way to really get true believers is by acts of
kindness
and love, not a meaningless war of words. In fact, the only thing I've
tried to pursuade anyone in this NG on is having some tolerance for those
who choose to believe differently. So, since I choose to believe
differently than you, let me ask you, is your faith in your belief that
unsteady that you feel you must get the world to believe as you do?
When it comes down to it, most atheists I meet are just like most theists
I
meet. Everything has to be their way, and if the world doesn't believe as
they do, than the unbelievers must be, by default, one step lower on the
evolutionary scale. Seriosly (and this goes to any theists that would
fall
in this category as well), it's time to grow up.
--
May the Lord bless you and keep you, and may He make His face ****ne upon
you and be gracious unto you. May he overfill our hearts with His undying
love and rightousness. A'men (meaning meaning "Let it be so")
Will
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