panamfloyd@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote in
news:1193516439.196563.101250@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Oct 27, 3:45 pm, Will <some...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> Al Klein <ruk...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
>> innews:q527i3pmb02aagbk1f7f4i1ci6h7802m98@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 16:37:33 GMT, Will <some...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >>"Bill M" <wm...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in news:re3Ui.6130$b9.4174
>> >>@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> >>> There are many hundreds of religious and god beliefs.
>>
>> >>> How do you know your belief is the correct belief and all the
>> >>> others are fakes?
>>
>> >>By the daily miracles, signs, and wonders. By the prophecies that
>> >>have been fulfilled, and are still being fulfilled today? By the
>> >>grace that He has extended me. By the answered prayers. By the
>> >>unanswered prayers. By faith and love.
>>
>> > IOW, you don't have a clue.
>>
>> I'm not the one asking the questions here, you are.
>
> He's not "asking questions", he's asking somone who claims gods exist
> to put up or shut up.
No, he's asking how anyone can be sure about how they chose to believe.
Read the question, it says "How do you know your belief is the correct
belief and all the others are fakes?"
[snip]
>
>> Try reading my
>> answer, however, instead of writing your own IOW answer.
>>
>>
>>
>> >>> Why would any real God permit his creations to be so deceived?
>>
>> >>Why don't you ask Him with an open mind and an open heart?
>>
>> > Why don't you post objective evidence that "he" objectively exists?
>>
>> Because I'm not the one asking the loaded question, I'm not the one
>> seeking the answers to this loaded question, and I'm not the one
>> that's trying to convince others of my belief or disbelief.
>
> The question is not "loaded".
A loaded question is "a question that presupposes something that has not
been proven or accepted by all the people involved." (wikipedia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_many_questions,
10/27/07)
The question that was loaded is "Why would any real God permit his
creations to be so deceived?" In this, there is the underlying
presupposition that if God were real, than we either shouldn't be
permitted to deception, or that there must be a good reason for such
deception to be tolerated. Therefore, if deception exists, with the
abscence of a sound and valid reason for such deception, than the
question further assumes that God cannot exist, as the two would need a
sound and valid reason to co-exist together.
Therefore, this question is a loaded question.
> There is no evidence any of mankind's
> hundreds of thousands of gods exist.
That's a lot of gods. I only wor****p one.
> So the non-existence of gods is
> the default position.
OK, this is both a false dichotomy and argumentum ad ignorantum. First,
just because you don't see any evidence of God doesn't mean that He
doesn't exist. Second, just because you can't find evidence one way
doesn't mean you need to default to the polar opposite. For example, I
can make the claim that I find no evidence that God doesn't exist.
Therefore, the default position is that He exists and it is up to you to
prove to me that He doesn't (especially since you seem to want me to
believe as you do).
However, I could, if I chose to, take the position that there is no
evidence that if there is no evidence that God exists, and if there is no
evidence that He doesn't exist, than we are left with the position of not
knowing, subject to our own beliefs.
> You are the one who claim gods exist,
No, I BELIEVE God (one God) exists. Get it straight.
> so it is
> your burden to prove they do.
You're the one that claims that God doesn't exist, so it is your burden
to prove that He doesn't.
> If it were my duty to disprove every
> nutty claim people make about the alleged "supernatural", there would
> be no time to do anything else.
Than why not just let people believe what they want to believe and call
it a day. That way, you can do whatever nutty things you normally do
during the day.
>
>> Why don't you ask yourself if He exists the next time you come within
>> a fraction of a second of sure death just to be saved by some
>> infinitesimal improbability (we call those miracles where I'm from,
>> though that's not the only kind of miracle)?
>
> Been there, done that.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/da05fd09c5e8309b?dmode=s
> ource
>
Funny.
>> Ask yourself if He exists next time the
>> timing is just too perfect for a personal petition (a prayer)
>> answered from that very deity that you chose not to believe in.
>
> I petition no one. Two hands working do more than a thousand praying.
That's because hands don't pray, hearts do.
> I realize that the universe is an uncaring, difficult place sometimes,
> and I feel no need to make up fairy tales when bad things happen to
> good people.
Good for you.
>
>> When you finally
>> realize how blessed you are, ask yourself if He exists.
>>
>> Again, you're the one that wants to know, not me. You're the one
>> seeking answers, not me (for I have found all the answers in Him).
>
> You once again mistake a request for proof as a "search" for
> something.
No, but apparantly I mistake your request for proof for your willingless
to receive such proof straight from the source.
> I don't need your insipid little Bronze Age myth.
Good, because I don't have an insipid little bronze-age myth. I have
Jesus Christ.
> I do not
> have the void in my emotions that requires the `security blanket' of
> religion.
When I was in my dark place, for many years away from God, I thought I
too was complete. But when I came to Him, it was only than that I
realized just how empty my former way of life was, and how empty I really
felt. When you live with such a conditin for a long enough period of
time, you don't realize that the condition is there until that condition
is removed.
> I reserve my love for humans, and my wonder for the natural
> universe. There is nothing missing. Nothing in my life for such a
> meaningless being to *do*.
Great. Study nature, and all its complexities. If you can prove that
it's all some kind of cosmic accident void of any deity, than I'm sure
you'll win the hearts and minds of many believers.
>
>> Just approach
>> the subject with an open heart and open mind, and you'll find the
>> answers that you need--not from me, and probably not from any one
>> particular church, synagogue, mosque, or other kind of religious
>> facility, but from Him whom I serve.
>
> And whose existence you *still* have not proven.
I already told you, I'm not here to prove these things to you. Just like
when a rumor spreads, if you want to know the real truth of the matter,
you go straight to the source. Such is the same with God. If you want
to know the truth about Him, go straight to the source. Do you want to
know the truth?
Regards,
Will
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