On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 04:21:21 -0700, Midjis <midwinter_m@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>On 13 Oct, 05:15, Al Klein <ruk...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>> You present objective evidence of the objective existence of a god -
>> any god - and there'll be very few atheists left.
>
>I wouldn't make assumptions on that score.
It's not an assumption - I'm merely compressing a few decades worth of
statements BY atheists into one sentence.
>After all, there is plenty of objective evidence for evolution
Like the fact that it occurs.
>yet it is still rejected by some Christian fundamentalists.
The fundamentalist distortion that they call evolution is rejected by
fundamentalists - and by scientists. Fundamentalists don't reject
evolution, they just claim that what science defines the word to mean
isn't what it means.
>Now, you might argue that that's because
>such people are stupid - but it's not. Many fundies - and I'm not
>talking about the amateurs you'll likely meet in groups like this, who
>parrot stuff they've heard but don't really think about it - are very
>intelligent indeed. Nevertheless, their intransigence is still rooted
>in the fact that they know what they prefer to think and they'll
>accept whatever evidence and arguments sup****t that conclusion, and
>reject or reinterpret any that doesn't.
No, it's rooted in stupidity. No biologist, atheist or
fundamentalist, rejects the process science calls 'evolution'. You're
using the fundamentalist definition of the word, and scientists will
tell you that this form of 'evolution' (monkeys turning into men, fish
turning into birds) can't happen.
>And it's not just the religious, either. Take our friendly resident
>conspiracy theorists: the 9/11 'Truth' movement, or those determined
>that the British royal family had Diana killed.
They're all opinions, since not all the facts have been released. All
known facts about evolution have 'been released'. No facts about any
god have ever been released - because there aren't any.
>Likewise, should God appear on the White House lawn (for some reason,
>all extraterrestrial visitors are expected to land on the White House
>lawn), there will no doubt be some erstwhile atheists who'll be
>convinced. But I'd expect to see a fairly large number of them trying
>to find alternative explanations for what they saw.
If there are alternate explanations, sure. However, if an omniscient
omnipotent god exists, he'd be able to appear in such manner that
there are no alternate explanations.
>Perhaps I should try to mitigate that a little: I'm not actually
>comparing atheist to conspiracy theorist as a matter of course. I'm
>simply illustrating the human tendency to stick to what you think you
>know (not to mention what you *prefer*) and to resist any compulsion
>to change an established opinion.
Which has nothing to do with a request for objective evidence to a
claim of objective existence. Objective existence MEANS that
objective evidence exists. "I believe ..." isn't objective.
>> Most non-believers know only that there's no evidence that there's
>> anything there. Provide it and they're no longer non-believers.
>Which is more or less what I said, but from a different angle. Anyone
>who recognises evidence for belief is already a believer
You can't 'recognize evidence' that doesn't objectively exist. If you
have any that does, post it. Otherwise you don't. It's a valid
dichotomy.
If there's a god that objectively exists, there's objective evidence
of that existence. If there's no objective evidence, there's no
objective existence. It's that simple. Nothing objectively exists
without leaving objective evidence.
>For a non-believer, there is and can be no evidence.
If there is objective evidence, there is objective evidence - whether
the observer is a believer or a non-believer. But only for OBJECTIVE
evidence - of which there is none for any god. Again - if you have
any, post it. ("I saw ..." isn't objective evidence, it's an
assertion, but that's the only kind of "evidence" we're ever given.)
--
Al at Webdingers dot com
"I've never had a problem with pollution. If God didn't want smoke in the
air,
he wouldn't have told us to burn witches."
- Stephen Colbert
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